Searching for DAC with S/PDIF Out, Volume Control / Remote, BT optional

[Zwuckel]

Hi there,

in another thread I came to the decision that I want to get a pair Neumann KH150. Not today but maybe next year. Those speakershave analog and S/PDIF input. In my other thread it was recommended to go the digital route and somewhere here I read that the noise level is lower.

Before I buy those speakers I want to get a DAC/AMP for headphones that can be used later on with the Neumann KH150.

My best guess atm is to go through a Topping D10s and add a L30II. But then I´d have to buy a 300 Euro remote control for the Neumanns, as reducing the volume via Windows gets lower resolution. Maybe there is a software solution for that? I also looked at the MOTU Ultalite Mk5, but no Remote and probably need an additional hp amp which add to the total cost.

So I am looking or a DAC/DDC Combo with volume control preferably with remote control and maybe even BT.

What are my options? Budget wise I like the Topping products.

 

[staticV3]

All digital volume control technically reduces the resolution. Windows is not an exception there.

However, unless there is audible hiss coming from the DAC, this loss in resolution is meaningless as your bottleneck is elsewhere (ambient noise/amplifier noise/etc).

 

[Zwuckel]

I just found the following information from user @L5730 in the Forum:

The Topping (D10) does have a hardware volume control. It's actually inside the DAC chip and is controlled through software.

So I am assuming the D10s will also have a hardware volume control which can be spoken to via software. Is there any downside to control the volume on the D10s which then goes into the DSP controlled Neumanns?

 

[antcollinet]

I just found the following information from user @L5730 in the Forum:



So I am assuming the D10s will also have a hardware volume control which can be spoken to via software. Is there any downside to control the volume on the D10s which then goes into the DSP controlled Neumanns?

That hardware volume control is still digital. But as pointed out by @staticV3 that is fine. It doesn't degrade the sound if you are not getting audible noise out of your dac.

 

[Nutul]

I just found the following information from user @L5730 in the Forum:



So I am assuming the D10s will also have a hardware volume control which can be spoken to via software. Is there any downside to control the volume on the D10s which then goes into the DSP controlled Neumanns?

If you leave the DAC to enter the Neumanns digitally, then the DAC should apply no volume reduction... the DACs digital out should be at 0dB.

 

[MCH]

I don't remember any budget DAC with remote that offers volume control in the spdif output, but now I am curious... Maybe some soundcards do? But then the issue is the remote control.... hmm you might have to end up buying the Neumann remote...

 

[Zwuckel]

So after some back and forth and researching and writing to Neumann, I think I figured it out. So one S/PDIF goes to speaker #1 and from there to #2.

In addtition you put a network cable into your PC, put it into a switch and put it into both speakers. Then you can control the DSP AND Volume via MA-1 Software. So as I understand it now, the Topping D10s would be sufficient.

Neumann actually recommended the AES67 version but they are 600 Euros more per pair and I don´t see the usecase for me.

Thanks for all the answers. Again, I learned a lot new stuff about audio components.

 

[L5730]

If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll plug the S/PDIF optical out of the D10 (original, not -s) into the RME Babyface Pro fs and see if the optical digital output level is controlled in the DAC.

 

[ahofer]

All digital volume control technically reduces the resolution. Windows is not an exception there.

However, unless there is audible hiss coming from the DAC, this loss in resolution is meaningless as your bottleneck is elsewhere (ambient noise/amplifier noise/etc).

This is really a non-issue, esp with oversampling so ubiquitous. And Roon and other players can manage it as well.

 

[Zwuckel]

@ahofer That´s good to hear. But since I am adding a DAC the Windows volume will mean nothing right? Or is it a case by case thing?

@L5730 Sounds interesting!

 

[ahofer]

@ahofer That´s good to hear. But since I am adding a DAC the Windows volume will mean nothing right? Or is it a case by case thing?

@L5730 Sounds interesting!

I don't use windows out at all, but I think the question lies with the output software/driver. If you are using something like JRiver connected via USB to your DAC, you will be able to control digital output volume, so you can digitally decrease the amplitude of the output signal. Especially with a program like that, I suspect it is quite well managed and you won't worry about signal degradation. So the DAC will be putting out lower voltage with volume down and your amplified SPLs will be lower. You would want to set your DAC or preamp output volume higher to giver yourself the range you want from the software.

The drawback to this approach is if you switch to some other software and it sends a full-strength line output to your DAC and suddenly your youtube video is incredibly loud. Or even a system sound comes through really loud. So that's an argument for using Windows output controls. I'll yield to others on how well that's managed. In the past, I thought apple may have done a better job, but I don't really know.

 

[L5730]

Apologies for late testing: Family emergencies and a severe lack of sleep.

Setup:
Fb2k: DSP and ReplayGain off. Input file 16 bit / 44.1 kHz FLAC from ripped CD. ASIO Topping driver or WASAPI
Topping D10 original unbalanced: Optical output to RME BFPfs
Topping device control panel open and Output volume pop-out window open.
RME BFPfs: Optical input DIGICheck "bit statistics and noise" function view and TotalMix open.

Play the audio file:
RME DIGICheck reports 16 bits of data at 44.1 kHz. All level meters looks about right for the music content.

Adjust the Topping control panel volume down:
RME DIGICheck reports 24 bits of data at 44.1 KHz. The meter levels show a reduction in signal level.

As far as I can tell, the Output volume control in the control panel is controlling volume at the hardware level (ESS DAC chip) in 127 steps, and is internally 32 bit, although I can't verify the bit depth as the audio interface I have only supports 24 bit digital input.

Volumio show that the Topping D10 has hardware volume control, but I haven't got the time to hook up to the RPi with Volumio and try that out.

Time permitting, I could retry the test capturing the FFT of the digital signal, that may give more clues as to dither if present.

 

[L5730]

Data sheet for ESS 9018K2M (Topping D10)

https://www.esstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/ES9018K2M-Datasheet-v3.6.pdf

Volume Control
Each output channel has its own attenuation circuit. The attenuation for each channel is controlled independently. Each channel can be attenuated from 0dB to —127dB in 0.5dB steps. Each 0.5dB step transition takes up to 64 intermediate levels, depending on the vol_rate register setting. The result being that the level changes are done using small enough steps so that no switching noise occurs during the transition of the volume control. When a new volume level is set, the attenuation circuit will ramp softly to the new level.

Indeed there was a delay when adjusting the volume slider in the Topping control panel.

It'd be nice to get hold of the Sabre 2m GUI application. However I don't know if it would work through the XMOS chip or not. I have no idea how this stuff works

 

[Zwuckel]

That is good news right? I think this is incredible for the price. I am somewhat in awe what a cheap device can do.

The S/PDIF out was for future connection to Neumanns KH150. But I decided to slowly ramp up and first go with the Kali LP-6. Now I tried a SMSL C200 as my main controller (remote) and headphone amp. The clean sound is amazing. Nothing compared to my Laptop built in DAC.

But another use case is to play piano with a VST and I can´t get the lateny short enough. The miminum buffer size in the VST program is 512 samples. Everything below distorts the sound incredibly.

So I bought a Motu M4 to test parallel.