Review and Measurements of New Topping D50s DAC

[omarkhayamma]

I read your post again.

Since foober2000 is operating in ASIO exclusive mode, the PC can only output from foober2000's USB. Therefore, BT cannot operate.
If you want to output in BT, you need to manually switch the operation mode of foober2000 to BT output. It cannot operate at the same time as USB and BT.

As for the display of icons, two types of connection, USB and BT, are set between the laptop PC and D50, so two icons are displayed. This is correct.

The speaker icon represents the USB connection with the D50s. Therefore, BT pairing cannot be set. (There is none)

The headphone icon shows the BT connection with the D50s.
Your PC only displays the headphone symbol as a BT connection icon. As shown on the side, it is correctly paired with the D50s BT.

I think your D50s and laptop are functioning correctly as long as you read your post.
Excuse me. I am not good at English, so there are many mistakes in the text. But I love exchanging opinions with the people in the forum.

Toku you are 100% right. I actually figured this out somewhere between my posts but i didn't mention because it made me look like a complete fool....lol.

But the question about bluetooth output from foobar still stands. Is DS my only option (works great by the way, but only in 44,1kHz) or should i be able to have sound with other output modes, like ASIO or WASAPI via bluetooth? WASAPI works great with USB but when i turn to bluetooth and choose WASAPI (event): headphones there is a playback error: "Unsupported stream format: 96000 Hz / 16-bit / 2 channels"

 

[Zek]

One thing is not clear to me - why do you need a bluetooth connection from PC to D50s when it is already connected via USB?

 

[omarkhayamma]

One thing is not clear to me - why do you need a bluetooth connection from PC to D50s when it is already connected via USB?

I need to figure out how everything works. Right now i basically don't need it. But in the near future that my laptop will be far away from the dac i will be forced to use bluetooth

 

[Toku]

Toku you are 100% right. I actually figured this out somewhere between my posts but i didn't mention because it made me look like a complete fool....lol.

But the question about bluetooth output from foobar still stands. Is DS my only option (works great by the way, but only in 44,1kHz) or should i be able to have sound with other output modes, like ASIO or WASAPI via bluetooth? WASAPI works great with USB but when i turn to bluetooth and choose WASAPI (event): headphones there is a playback error: "Unsupported stream format: 96000 Hz / 16-bit / 2 channels"

> DS my only option (works great by the way, but only in 44,1kHz)

DS (DirectShow) is in WASAPI sharing mode.
The output bit rate is from "Control Panel" of Windiws
>> Go to "Hardware & Sound" >> "Sound", open "Properties" of "Speaker (TOPPING USB DAC)" and set it.
All songs from PCM 44.1kHz to 768kHz are resampled and output according to the bit rate set here. It cannot be output at the original bit rate.
If the setting exceeds 192kHz, a playback error will occur.
The setting screen can also be set by going to Windows "Settings" >> "System" >> "Sound" >> "Sound Control Panel".

To output at the original bit rate, set Output to WASAPI exclusive mode. WASAPI exclusive mode supports up to PCM 44.1kHz >>> 768kHz 16/24/32bit.
However, DSD is not supported in WASAPI share mode and WASAPI exclusive mode.

> There is a playback error reading: "Unsupported stream format: 96000Hz / 16-bit / 2channels" every time.

This is an error when the playback file deviates from the setting.
Is this an error during BT output? BT supports up to 44.1/48kHz.

I hope my miscellaneous knowledge will help you.

foober2000 has a high degree of freedom but is very difficult. So I usually use TuneBrowser made in Japan.
This is a very easy to use and convenient audio player.

 

[VintageFlanker]

But the question about bluetooth output from foobar still stands. Is DS my only option (works great by the way, but only in 44,1kHz) or should i be able to have sound with other output modes, like ASIO or WASAPI via bluetooth? WASAPI works great with USB but when i turn to bluetooth and choose WASAPI (event): headphones there is a playback error: "Unsupported stream format: 96000 Hz / 16-bit / 2 channels"

Bluetooth doesn't support 96Khz, nor Wasapi or Asio. As simple as that.

 

[omarkhayamma]

> DS my only option (works great by the way, but only in 44,1kHz)

DS (DirectShow) is in WASAPI sharing mode.
The output bit rate is from "Control Panel" of Windiws
>> Go to "Hardware & Sound" >> "Sound", open "Properties" of "Speaker (TOPPING USB DAC)" and set it.
All songs from PCM 44.1kHz to 768kHz are resampled and output according to the bit rate set here. It cannot be output at the original bit rate.
If the setting exceeds 192kHz, a playback error will occur.
The setting screen can also be set by going to Windows "Settings" >> "System" >> "Sound" >> "Sound Control Panel".

To output at the original bit rate, set Output to WASAPI exclusive mode. WASAPI exclusive mode supports up to PCM 44.1kHz >>> 768kHz 16/24/32bit.
However, DSD is not supported in WASAPI share mode and WASAPI exclusive mode.

> There is a playback error reading: "Unsupported stream format: 96000Hz / 16-bit / 2channels" every time.

This is an error when the playback file deviates from the setting.
Is this an error during BT output? BT supports up to 44.1/48kHz.

I hope my miscellaneous knowledge will help you.

foober2000 has a high degree of freedom but is very difficult. So I usually use TuneBrowser made in Japan.
This is a very easy to use and convenient audio player.

Wow great information for me Toku. Yes the error i talked about concerns bluetooth. I didn't know it supports up to 44,1kHz, VintageFlanker also mentioned that. So bluetooth is fine. One less thing to worry about....my therapist will be thrilled. Thanks to both!

Though now i seem to have another issue. Whenever i play flac at 96kHz everything is fine. I can also have sound elsewhere (youtube, VLC) but i when i play mp3 at 44,1kHz then everything else mutes. WHY? I have to change the settings on sound>speakers properties>advanced> all over again and restart all my programs to have sound again.

Yes it's true foobar is pretty demanding (i spent days and days to set it like i wanted to) but the freedom it gives you is in fact its edge over other softwares. Never heard of TuneBrowser, I 'll give it a look.

 

[omarkhayamma]

Though now i seem to have another issue. Whenever i play flac at 96kHz everything is fine. I can also have sound elsewhere (youtube, VLC) but i when i play mp3 at 44,1kHz then everything else mutes. WHY? I have to change the settings on sound>speakers properties>advanced> all over again and restart all my programs to have sound again.

So that only happens with ASIO. With DS even if i play an mp3 it's being played at 96kHz, (the way i have set it on sound settings) and everything is fine. But why doesn't the same thing happens with ASIO and the mp3s aren't resampled in 96kHz ending up ruining the sound everywhere else? Is it a drivers thing?

 

[Gradius]

Bluetooth doesn't support 96Khz, nor Wasapi or Asio. As simple as that.

Not yet. Perhaps in near future.

Bluetooth v5 can do 2Mbps, and LDAC uses half of that (@990kbps max).

2Mbps = ~250KB.

FLAC: 96kHz @ 24-bit (stereo) = ~210KB/s (around 1.7~1.8Mbps). So it would be possible.

 

[Toku]

So that only happens with ASIO. With DS even if i play an mp3 it's being played at 96kHz, (the way i have set it on sound settings) and everything is fine. But why doesn't the same thing happens with ASIO and the mp3s aren't resampled in 96kHz ending up ruining the sound everywhere else? Is it a drivers thing?

DS mode is output via Windows 10 mixer. Resampling is performed at the bit rate set at this time.
In ASIO mode, it bypasses the Windows 10 mixer and outputs directly. So with D50s, the original bit rate will be played.
In playback that passes through the Windows 10 mixer, you can mix and output the sound produced by various processes in the PC, but the sound quality will deteriorate. So Hi-Reso playback uses ASIO and other exclusive modes to bypass the mixer and prevent sound quality degradation. However, you will not hear any other sounds such as Youtube.

Now output is set to the same "ASIO: foo_dsd_asio" as you are playing mp3, but D50s shows 44.1kHZ.

TuneBrowser can register up to 500 songs and can be used free of charge.
If you want to register more songs, the paid version is $ 28.
(It can be used in the same way as the paid version for 30 days after installation.)

Home Top
https://tunebrowser.tikisoft.net/summary/
Download
https://tunebrowser.tikisoft.net/download/
Forum
https://tunebrowser.tikisoft.net/forum/

 

[VintageFlanker]

Not yet. Perhaps in near future.

Maybe. For now, manufacturers don't seem to care much about lossless BT. Only Huawei announced something interesting with LHDC/LLAC.

Please note Sony LDAC is variable. 330 to 990Kb/s. Still not uncompressed 16/44, even at 990...

2Mbps = ~250KB.

2000Kbps.

FLAC: 96kHz @ 24-bit (stereo) = ~210KB/s (around 1.7~1.8Mbps). So it would be possible.

Unfortunately way more than that. WAV 24/44 is already 2,1Mbps. FLAC 24/88 is generally ≈ 2,5Mbps, even more so with 96Khz. MQA compression is usually below 2Mbps, however.

Conclusion : BT 5.0 will be good enough for uncompressed 16 bits. Now, we need manufacturers to care a bit more about this...

 

[Gradius]

Maybe. For now, manufacturers don't seem to care much about lossless BT. Only Huawei announced something interesting with LHDC/LLAC.

Please note Sony LDAC is variable. 330 to 990Kb/s. Still not uncompressed 16/44, even at 990...

LHDC is worse than LDAC. Is a variation from SBC puke. Plus, the max is just 900kbps.

LDAC @990 is as good as CD quality:
https://www.soundguys.com/ldac-ultimate-bluetooth-guide-20026/

I know very well is variable, I would NEVER user less than 990kbps.

FLAC 24/88 is generally ≈ 2,5Mbps, even more so with 96Khz.

Where did you got those results? I got mine from a lot audio samples.

MQA = meh.

Conclusion : BT 5.0 will be good enough for uncompressed 16 bits. Now, we need manufacturers to care a bit more about this...

No need to be uncompressed at all (waste of bandwidth). It just need to be something like FLAC is. So probably 48kHz @ 24-bit would be possible, that of course with BT v5.

Pretty sure BT v6 will come in future. They are removing the 3.5mm connector from smartphones now.

 

[Veri]

2000Kbps.

Note Mbps is not MBps. https://www.gbmb.org/mbps-to-mbs

 

[VintageFlanker]

Where did you got those results? I got mine from a lot audio samples

From my library:

For example uncompressed 24/88 or 96 WAV is more than 4000 Kbps.

I got my tracks from Qobuz or Bandcamp.

Note Mbps is not MBps. https://www.gbmb.org/mbps-to-mbs

My bad! Let's talk in Kbps, then.

LDAC @990 is as good as CD quality:

Still compressed. CD bitrate is 1411 Kbps.

 

[Gradius]

Still compressed. CD bitrate is 1411 Kbps.

FLAC IS compressed, but 100% lossless. Got my point ?

 

[omarkhayamma]

Thank you Toku, you were really helpful!!

 

[303]

I'm experiencing sudden extreme distortion when playing at 768kHz for a while. I don't like any of the filters on this DAC (or on most DAC's in fact), so using I'm my own multistage upsampling with several 'Resampler-V' instances in series in the Foobar2000 player. Until the distortion kicks in it sounds great (I will use the scientifically valid term 'holographic nirvana' for it)

But when it happens, it's like the DAC suddenly sounds like it's playing it as a 1-bit file (because possibly it is), at maximum volume. Not nice when listening at night and this is suddenly happening about 20dB above the current listening level. And not nice for the speakers as well.
Turning the unit off and on resolves the issue, until it happens again (which it will)

I had this issue happening multiple times now....

I tried switching the driver (Windows 10) to ASIO, WDM, kernel streaming, but it doesn't make a difference. Other USB port: same issue. I'm streaming at 32 bit to the DAC so I'm surely maxing out the throughput.

I contacted the dealer, and they are willing to exchange the D50s for a new one, but I'm not entirely sure my unit is defective.

Anyone else experiencing the same problems after prolonged playback (whole day) at 768kHz? Could this possibly a bug, which went unnoticed as I figured not many people are listening all day at 768kHz? Could it be related to overheating, because the DAC has to work harder at this sample rate?

This thread is a lot to read, so I may have missed it if someone mentioned it before.

Another possibility is that my player is suddenly throwing out bad data. Never had that happening before with Foobar (using it since the beginning), but then again I never played at 768kHz before. It could also be driver-related, but that's hard to tell.

 

[Gradius]

@303

Resampler-V is from 2018/01/17 and since then there weren't any update so far.

I don't know if the author was capable to test 768kHz in real World (I don't think so).

Keep in mind SRC is very CPU intensive, so if you are using a slow computer you will run into problems.

You should try lower frequency first, like 192kHz and 384kHz, and see if it runs fine.

I recommend another (more modern) plug-in: SRC Resampler
https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_dsp_src_resampler

It can do the max posible on foobar (20MHz), however, beyond 384 you need to manually enter the frenquency value you want (by multiples of 256).

 

[Toku]

I'm experiencing sudden extreme distortion when playing at 768kHz for a while. I don't like any of the filters on this DAC (or on most DAC's in fact), so using I'm my own multistage upsampling with several 'Resampler-V' instances in series in the Foobar2000 player. Until the distortion kicks in it sounds great (I will use the scientifically valid term 'holographic nirvana' for it)

But when it happens, it's like the DAC suddenly sounds like it's playing it as a 1-bit file (because possibly it is), at maximum volume. Not nice when listening at night and this is suddenly happening about 20dB above the current listening level. And not nice for the speakers as well.
Turning the unit off and on resolves the issue, until it happens again (which it will)

I had this issue happening multiple times now....

I tried switching the driver (Windows 10) to ASIO, WDM, kernel streaming, but it doesn't make a difference. Other USB port: same issue. I'm streaming at 32 bit to the DAC so I'm surely maxing out the throughput.

I contacted the dealer, and they are willing to exchange the D50s for a new one, but I'm not entirely sure my unit is defective.

Anyone else experiencing the same problems after prolonged playback (whole day) at 768kHz? Could this possibly a bug, which went unnoticed as I figured not many people are listening all day at 768kHz? Could it be related to overheating, because the DAC has to work harder at this sample rate?

This thread is a lot to read, so I may have missed it if someone mentioned it before.

Another possibility is that my player is suddenly throwing out bad data. Never had that happening before with Foobar (using it since the beginning), but then again I never played at 768kHz before. It could also be driver-related, but that's hard to tell.

I have previously suffered from the same trouble with PCM768kHz and DSD512 playback.
My PC at that time was Windows10 Pro (1809) + core i7-7700K + 16GB + 500GB SSD.
After that, Windows 10 became 1903 and the PC changed to core i7-8700K, and the symptoms disappeared.

So PCM768kHz playback requires much more processing power of the PC than I had imagined.
I think that the burden on the PC is too great for your case because of the additional resampling process.

 

[303]

I'm pretty sure now the problem is somehow within the D50s...
I just had the issue again. Closed Foobar, reopened: distorted playback.
Turned computer off and on, started playing through Foobar: issue still exists. (I think this should exclude the driver being the culprit)
Tried other USB-ports: same.
Then I powercycled the D50s: problem dissappears

I will try changing the power supply, maybe it's not giving the DAC enough juice.

@303
Keep in mind SRC is very CPU intensive, so if you are using a slow computer you will run into problems.
You should try lower frequency first, like 192kHz and 384kHz, and see if it runs fine.
I recommend another (more modern) plug-in: SRC Resampler

I'm aware of SRC being CPU-intensive. My Core i7 maxes out at 25% CPU during playback, so I'm not suspecting lack of CPU power has anything to do with it.

About SRC Resampler versus Resampler-V: I really like the interface of Resampler-V, but most of all the grannular level of adjustments being possible with it. I'm using multiple instances of Resampler-V in series, optimized 'by ear' for each source sample rate, as my personal experience is I could maintain better transient response with sufficient stopband rejection and less pre/postringing if the upsampling is performed in smaller steps (for example 44.1-48 intermediate phase --> 48-96 linear phase -> 96-768 linear phase)
A well know DAC designer hinted me in this direction, he told me they implemented such a CPU intensive multistage upsampling in their DACs, and I must say the result sounds amzing (though it's possible it will measure worse)

Another possibility would be that Foobar is throwing out 'bad data' that somehow triggers a bug in the D50s, but this is just speculation

 

[Veri]

I'm using multiple instances of Resampler-V in series, optimized 'by ear' for each source sample rate, as my personal experience is I could maintain better transient response with sufficient stopband rejection and less pre/postringing if the upsampling is performed in smaller steps (for example 44.1-48 intermediate phase --> 48-96 linear phase -> 96-768 linear phase)
A well know DAC designer hinted me in this direction, he told me they implemented such a CPU intensive multistage upsampling in their DACs, and I must say the result sounds amazing (though it's possible it will measure worse)

Another possibility would be that Foobar is throwing out 'bad data' that somehow triggers a bug in the D50s, but this is just speculation

Could be it's your elaborate set-up that cannot process it in real-time...
honestly upsampling 48>96>768 seems pretty pointless/silly to me