Preamp measuring well, sounding natural, providing excellent synergy with the Pass Labs XA30.5?

[TheInquiring]

Hello everybody!

Currently I am considering the Pass Labs XP-20 or the Pass Labs XP-12 preamp as an upgrade to my Primare PRE30, and badly in need for your recommendations, dear experts, as the actual auditioning is not in the cards for me, unfortunately enough.

I wish to use the preamp exclusively in my music-only two-channel setup (both analog, and digital). I know that these preamps have a fine reputation for their performance, and are known to be very musical. First of all, I am interested in the best sound (jazz vocal, opera, pipe organ, grand piano, big orchestra works, some pop and rock).

I am not a technical Guru by any means, but the XP-12 and XP-20 look quite similar in terms of the specs to me with a few notable differences: the XP-12 is better for Freq. Response, has finer Volume control, better for Crosstalk, BUT Output Noise Floor is much lower for the XP-20 (less than 0.5 uV vs. 15 uV @ 10 - 30 KHz, if I am reading the specs correctly). Not sure about the differences in their distortion spectra... What specs are the most important for the SOUND (sorry about such silly question...)?

The objective measurements alone do not tell the whole story, but certainly are the precursor for the sonics to be expected… At least in my humble opinion.

Where would your nod, dear experts, go for the best synergy between the XA30.5 and the preamp, please? Is this, perhaps, a “generational” question, meaning the XA30.5 and the XP-20 do belong to the same “crop” and should be employed in tandem?

Additionally, any true balanced designs you would suggest me to consider as alternatives to the XP-20/12 for about the same money, please? For example, PS Audio BHK Signature (should the tubed designs be considered at all in my case?) or, perhaps, Ayre Acoustics K-5xeMP?

Please chime in!

 

[restorer-john]

XP-20 (less than 0.5 uV vs. 15 uV @ 10 - 30 KHz, if I am reading the specs correctly)

specs on the XP-20 say:

With respect to 5V that would be ~15.8uV noise floor, basically the same rating as the XP-12.

Neither of those residual noise results are anything to get excited about. On the contrary, they are 10 times worse (A-wtd) than say a vintage Yamaha CX-1000 preamplifier from 1989 (as a random example I could think of).

Consider any decent D/A converter will have residual noise in the low single digit uVs, the Pass preamp is 10 times noisier before you even start.

 

[SIY]

Please chime in!

What are your sources? You may not need a preamp at all.

 

[TheInquiring]

Thank you very kindly, dear experts!

The Audioholics magazine gives the Output Noise Floor as less than 0.5 uV for the XP-20... I mistakenly supposed the Output Noise Floor is the same as the Residual Noise (15 uV @ 10 - 30 KHz for the XP-12). This is very confusing for a non-technical user, I must confess... Thank you very much, @restorer-john, for the clarification!

@SIY, currently I am using Magnum Dynalab Analogue FM tuner, Cambridge Audio CXC transport, Mac mini (Audirvana Plus), Cambridge Audio DacMagic 100 DAC (to be upgraded to ??? around 1K mark).

I can see now the XP-20/12 preamps are nothing to write home about. I assumed they would be the best fit for my Pass Labs power amp, which is not the case, apparently...

Any true balanced designs you would suggest me to consider as alternatives to the XP-20/12, please? PS Audio BHK Signature (should the tubed designs be considered at all in my case?) or, perhaps, Ayre Acoustics K-5xeMP? Anything else for the reasonable money, please?

Please chime in!

 

[SIY]

It sounds like all you need is a switch and potentiometer rather than a line stage with gain. A couple orders of magnitude lower cost.

I'm unsure what you mean by "true" balanced design? There's "false" balanced designs? Are all of your sources balanced?

 

[Soniclife]

How about something like the Benchmark dac3 as both DAC upgrade, and balanced preamp replacement?

 

[HammerSandwich]

I was about to suggest the same thing. The RME with inputs would be another.

 

[HammerSandwich]

I'm unsure what you mean by "true" balanced design? There's "false" balanced designs?

A lot of people seem to believe that a component's not truly balanced unless it is fully differential all the way thru. IOW, conversion to/from single-ended internal stages doesn't count. (Amusingly, this often comes from those who believe that everything affects the sound. I have no idea how they think the 2 sides of the signal can stay in balance.)

 

[SIY]

A lot of people seem to believe nonsense.

In all seriousness, there's so much misconception, often spread by advertising and chimp-level audio reviewers, about what balanced means and how it works.

 

[Shadrach]

I'll chime in.
Given your use of terms like 'synergy', 'natural' and your choice of prospective equipment the dac/pre amps mentioned above are probably too studio orientated for what you want. Both these dacs have an incredible amount of features (I've only heard the Benchmark HGC I should add) that the average audio enthusiast isn't likely to use and often not understand. There is something to be said for a piece of equipment that you just plug in and forget about.
The first question I would ask is what is wrong with your Primare pre amp? Has it stopped working?
Rather than just fancy an upgrade because you have an audiophile itch, work out what it is that you find unsatisfactory with your current setup and then look for ways of altering those things. Buying the next cost tier up, or something else that gets mentioned in audiophile reviews is not necessarily going to give you an upgrade. It may just sound different.
Your main problem is going to be finding a preamp to cater for analogue inputs, particulalry if one is a record player. You may find a decent phono stage and any one of the recently reviewd sub $200 headphone amp and/or dac combinations will give you everything else you could possibly hear.
They just won't look as cool.

 

[restorer-john]

The Audioholics magazine gives the Output Noise Floor as less than 0.5 uV for the XP-20... I mistakenly supposed the Output Noise Floor is the same as the Residual Noise (15 uV @ 10 - 30 KHz for the XP-12). This is very confusing for a non-technical user, I must confess... Thank you very much, @restorer-john, for the clarification!

The 'output noise floor' is a rather nebulous term and may be the noise floor in the absence of any signal, possibly with a shorted input. It could also be with the volume pot/control at its least noisy position. Come preamps go silent at wide open, others at zero. For all we know, it could be a muted output.

 

[JohnYang1997]

I don't know what preamp does but I think a solid headphone amplifier that measure great with high impedance load will do the job.
I won't connect output of a potentiometer to the cable and stuff. If it's at the input of the next stage that's a different story.
You just need a thing to lower the output impedance to properly drive the cable.
Jds atom only has single ended input. Well, i just realized that I don have any recommendations here. If you don't mind controlling volume digitally or left channel and right channel individually you can use two jds atoms for each channel.

 

[JohnYang1997]

aune x7s + adapter should do the job.

 

[JohnYang1997]

But to be honest I would design a quad opa2140 parallel + balanced preamp myself with 1kohm volume pot to minimize the noise and distortion.

 

[TheInquiring]

Thank you all, dear experts, for your most appreciated help!
I try to build a modular ("one component - one function" kind) true balanced (the adjective is just to emphasize the "balanced" requirement) setup.

A lot of people seem to believe that a component's not truly balanced unless it is fully differential all the way thru.

In all seriousness, there's so much misconception, often spread by advertising and chimp-level audio reviewers, about what balanced means and how it works.

You are absolutely correct, dear experts, especially in a case of a totally non-technical user like myself... In my understanding,
there are many products that employ XLR connectors to an internal single-ended circuit, and, while sporting XLR connectors, don't process the signal in balanced form. I would think of such units as "pseudo-balanced". Hence, my usage of "true balanced", i.e. "fully differential all the way thru", as @HammerSandwich eloquently put it.

The first question I would ask is what is wrong with your Primare pre amp? Has it stopped working?
Rather than just fancy an upgrade because you have an audiophile itch, work out what it is that you find unsatisfactory with your current setup and then look for ways of altering those things. Buying the next cost tier up, or something else that gets mentioned in audiophile reviews is not necessarily going to give you an upgrade. It may just sound different.

You nailed it, dear @Shadrach! It's been working just fine for all these years, but still, I thought, it is a 20-year (or whereabouts) old design, and there surely should be much more advanced products on the market these days! BUT, as @restorer-john clearly illustrated,

On the contrary, they are 10 times worse (A-wtd) than say a vintage Yamaha CX-1000 preamplifier from 1989 (as a random example I could think of).

Quite frankly, I am lost: could somebody please (!) help me understand if my 20-year old Primare PRE30 fully balanced preamplifier is on equal footing with modern designs like, for example, PS Audio BHK Signature or Ayre Acoustics K-5xeMP (both are Stereophile Class A Recommended Components)? And, while we are considering this question, could somebody please (!) help me understand if the PRE30 operates in pure Class A, and if there is any global negative feedback employed?

Your main problem is going to be finding a preamp to cater for analogue inputs, particulalry if one is a record player.

Yes, this is a challenge, and I can tell there is an audible difference between using balanced output vs. unbalanced of my Magnum Dynalab MD105 Analogue FM tuner (I think the PRE30 "likes" balanced inputs more than unbalanced ones).

Any thoughts, dear experts, on a fully balanced DAC (around 1K mark)? Topping D70? RME? Okto Research DAC8 Stereo?

Thank you all, dear "brothers-in-music" (can't you tell I love Dire Straits)! Please chime in!

 

[SIY]

You are absolutely correct, dear experts, especially in a case of a totally non-technical user like myself... In my understanding,
there are many products that employ XLR connectors to an internal single-ended circuit, and, while sporting XLR connectors, don't process the signal in balanced form. I would think of such units as "pseudo-balanced". Hence, my usage of "true balanced", i.e. "fully differential all the way thru",

Differential is NOT the same as balanced. Balanced has specific advantages, irrespective of whether the circuitry is differential.

 

[Daverz]

Quite frankly, I am lost: could somebody please (!) help me understand if my 20-year old Primare PRE30 fully balanced preamplifier is on equal footing with modern designs like, for example, PS Audio BHK Signature or Ayre Acoustics K-5xeMP (both are Stereophile Class A Recommended Components)? And, while we are considering this question, could somebody please (!) help me understand if the PRE30 operates in pure Class A, and if there is any global negative feedback employed?

I don't think those pre-amps are any more advanced then your Primare. The PS Audio has a tube in the input. Ayre is really good at marketing.

 

[TheInquiring]

Happy Easter, dear friends!

Differential is NOT the same as balanced.

Could you please tell me where to go to educate myself a bit in the matter (something even a newbie could understand)?

I don't think those pre-amps are any more advanced then your Primare. The PS Audio has a tube in the input. Ayre is really good at marketing.

That's it than: there is no compelling reason to change my PRE30! You just saved me a few grand, @Daverz!

Any thoughts on the DAC, please?

As always, please chime in!

 

[SIY]

Could you please tell me where to go to educate myself a bit in the matter (something even a newbie could understand)?

Here's two to get started:

https://www.diyaudio.com/archive/bl...d1460406090-bruno-putzeys-micropre-g-word.pdf
http://davel.datatruck.com/Balanced Lines in Audio Systems - Bill Whitlock - OCR.pdf

 

[Willem]

Amplifier technology is very mature, and even though measured performance is still sometimes improved by newer units, the sonic benefits of that are doubtful. Pre amplifiers did serve a purpose in the old days with various analogue sources that all had different output levels. Pre amplifiers made sure that those signals all ended up at the same level once they were passed on to the power amplifier, and offered a volume control (and sometimes tone controls) as well. CD Red Book introduced the 2 Volt standard, and that is now the norm for dics players, but also mostly for DACs. So once you have decided - as I think you should - that analogue sources do not provide the quality made possible by digital sources, all you really need is a DAC with multiple inputs and a volume control. DACs with variable output are the modern pre amplifiers.
In your case I see an FM tuner that can probably be beaten by internet radio, I see a dics plyaer that i slikely to have a digital output as well. INshort, you do not even need analogue inputs anymore.
In my own case, I recently took the same decision, replacing my old Quad 33 pre amplifier used with the analogue outputs of a Bluray player, a Chromecast Audio and a television with a modern Pioneer U-05 DAC with a multitude of digital inputs and variable output. I could not be happier. The Pioneer measured very well, but if you want even better there is always RME or Benchmark. If you want to save money for the same quality, there is the Topping DX3pro.