Old Denon amplifiers vs new class D amplifiers on a tight budget?

[MikeFox]

Hello! First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for the community we have here at ASR, I've learned a lot and have had some good laughs with some of the threads here! Truly outstanding community that keeps me coming back!

I'm very new to this world of audio gear and, have been reading about it non-stop for the past few weeks, which has made me question my first amplifier purchase:
Should I get an older amp that was once "reputable"? Or should I go with the new age TPA/Infineon powered amps that are rising on the market?

I've been reading reviews of the sub 200 dollar Class D amplifier market and I hear comments saying "at this price point, you might as well pick up an used amp from a reputable brand" (paraphrased, not from any official reviewer), and I looked around to find that I can get Denon amps from the PMA-560 to PMA-860, from 100 to the 150 euro range.

My options:
PMA-560: 70wpc 8Ω, 110dB SNR and 0.015% THD ~ 100€ (claims new optical class A tech, whatever that means)
PMA-680R: 65wpc 8Ω, 107dB SNR and 0.008% THD ~ 120€
PMA-860: 80wpc 8Ω, 110dB SNR and 0.07% THD ~ 150€ (claims new optical class A tech, whatever that means)
(I looked for Denon as it seemed to be one of the brands people talk about the most when it comes to 80s and 90s amplifiers, I looked for Technics as well but they seem to carry a heavier "reputable brand" tax, but I'm open to other brand suggestions!)

Now, I know its impossible to know for sure if these claims are true at all or, how good these really are without proper measurements (which I haven't been able to find), so my hope was for someone that knows a bit better to help guide me in the right direction!

For context purposes: the Class D amplifiers I was looking at include the Aiyima A04 or the A07, Loxjie A30 and other TPA3255/TPA3116 & Infineon based amplifiers, my budget is around 150€. I've been using a budget car amp from the early 90s rigged to an old computer power supply as a hand me down to listen to music on my speakers and an AKAI MX-950 "mini system" that is currently at a repair shop. I'm very budget limited.

I'm using a cheap pair of 75W bookshelves (Lompoo LP42) that I might upgrade at some point.

TL;DR: I highlighted the main parts of the question for quicker glanced reading, I ramble way too much!

Thank you for reading!

 

[stemfencer]

Any update what you went with or what helped you make a decision?

Indeed this is a common question a lot of beginners have, and was a similar post about this on reddit recently as well. Not much out there on hard comparisons between the modern Tchip class Ds and the midrange A/Bs of yesteryear. Interested if others have any thoughts

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Take this with a grain of salt.
Go for the Denon. You are starting and need for a solid equipment that will last. The Denon are likely to last a long time. At 100~200 euros, they are no-brainers.

I would have gone a different route
I am quasi-off-grid. I use solar panels with batteries and a Diesel Generator as back-up. Energy conservation and efficiency are important for me. I would have gone Class D.

 

[MikeFox]

Any update what you went with or what helped you make a decision?

Indeed this is a common question a lot of beginners have, and was a similar post about this on reddit recently as well. Not much out there on hard comparisons between the modern Tchip class Ds and the midrange A/Bs of yesteryear. Interested if others have any thoughts

Frankly I'm not sure if my question was dumb or, asked before for it to not get any attention, I was a little sad by the fact! But no hard feelings.

Anyways!

I ended up going with a PMA-560, Denon amplifier from the 90s. Here's what I've learned so far:

In terms of blind SQ, go for the lowest THD rated amplifier, I feel like it's the only real metric you can go by without proper measurements.

I massively overestimated the power I needed for my setup, and as such, I could've maybe been just fine with a cheap class d amp if not better (more in that in a bit). My speakers are 75WPC and I thought 70WPC amp would fit the bill, I ended up never cranking the amp past volume 10 out of 40, big mistake there on my end.

Old amplifiers are cheaper and can often still be built better than new class d amps, specially the cheap kind, however there's a thing I massively overlooked: age. My PMA-560 is in need of serious TLC, which I'll go over with time. It needs new speaker relays (speakers cut in and out at times), needs recapping done, needs to have dry solder joints taken care of that are causing the right channel to go out at times, the buttons are a little scratchy, etc etc.

Don't get me wrong, when its not throwing a fit (which to be fair, isn't all that often, specially when it's warmed up), it sounds amazing and I have no subjective complaints about it, however, if you'd rather spare the "personality" that may come with a 29 year old amplifier, I'd say just go with the new class D stuff.

Do I regret getting my Denon PMA-560? Not really. Even with its problems, I am emotionally attached to it, I love the analog knobs and the sound of the relays when I turn it on (not so much when I'm listening to music and they cut off LOL) and it was a lovely piece of kit at some point in the history of Denon.

But unfortunately I cannot recommend it to anyone that doesn't share the same view, passion or patience for older audio equipment.

I plan to restore it to fully working condition, I'll take my time, but if you're new? Nothing replaces the feel of something that just works out of the box.

Go class D. :b

(speaker placement purely for picture purposes, I don't have them set up like this for listening lmao, pls don't yell at me for it)

 

[stemfencer]

Na I don't know why - question was perfectly put and something would be great to have some wiser head weight in on. Majority of new people dabbing their toes in this game will facing similar buying decision.

One of the most insightful pieces I have found around on the web is Digital Stereophony on YT, A/Bing the Denon PMA-600NE to Topping MX3 on handful of speakers. I know you can't tell much listening to these recordings, but in the comments you find his thoughts, which basically all come back to "You would be hard pressed to find any differences when comparing them in real life" and for the uinitiaited in hifi world the "only difference is price" - rather definitive statements. And I assume the Denon PMA-600NE would be on par with most mid-tier amps of yesteryear as minimum

Thanks for the feedback on your experience. There is certainly two sides to this decision, A) outright soung quality and B) all the non-funcitonal elements (footprint, reliability, analogue touch and feel etc). The first part it sounds like the latest Class Ds are really making leaps and bounds.

 

[MikeFox]

Na I don't know why - question was perfectly put and something would be great to have some wiser head weight in on. Majority of new people dabbing their toes in this game will facing similar buying decision.

One of the most insightful pieces I have found around on the web is Digital Stereophony on YT, A/Bing the Denon PMA-600NE to Topping MX3 on handful of speakers. I know you can't tell much listening to these recordings, but in the comments you find his thoughts, which basically all come back to "You would be hard pressed to find any differences when comparing them in real life" and for the uinitiaited in hifi world the "only difference is price" - rather definitive statements. And I assume the Denon PMA-600NE would be on par with most mid-tier amps of yesteryear as minimum

Thanks for the feedback on your experience. There is certainly two sides to this decision, A) outright soung quality and B) all the non-funcitonal elements (footprint, reliability, analogue touch and feel etc). The first part it sounds like the latest Class Ds are really making leaps and bounds.

This has simply been my experience, if you buy an older amp that has been restored or fixed up by some guy that works on these things, it might end up reliable! However for 100 euros? I couldn't just say no, specially when the next closest available one was going for 250 euros.

There's not much in it, honestly, I believe the speakers will be your biggest bottleneck because I've read that people drove much bigger, better speakers with the same amp and they said it still sounded great, but you'll eventually hit some wall.

If you want something that just works? I'd still recommend class D amps, the A30 has measured very well and it was around the same price as my PMA-560 for example, would probably beat it in SQ, too.

Good luck on your adventure into the audio world!

 

[TimW]

Hate to be mean but I had to look up those speakers since I had never heard of them. They look terrible from these measurements and the tear down.

Also volume control position for a given volume tells you very little about the power output of your amp. What it relates to is the gain staging of your system and the efficiency of your speakers.

 

[MikeFox]

Frankly I'm not sure if my question was dumb or, asked before for it to not get any attention, I was a little sad by the fact! But no hard feelings.

Anyways!

I ended up going with a PMA-560, Denon amplifier from the 90s. Here's what I've learned so far:

In terms of blind SQ, go for the lowest THD rated amplifier, I feel like it's the only real metric you can go by without proper measurements.

I massively overestimated the power I needed for my setup, and as such, I could've maybe been just fine with a cheap class d amp if not better (more in that in a bit). My speakers are 75WPC and I thought 70WPC amp would fit the bill, I ended up never cranking the amp past volume 10 out of 40, big mistake there on my end.

Old amplifiers are cheaper and can often still be built better than new class d amps, specially the cheap kind, however there's a thing I massively overlooked: age. My PMA-560 is in need of serious TLC, which I'll go over with time. It needs new speaker relays (speakers cut in and out at times), needs recapping done, needs to have dry solder joints taken care of that are causing the right channel to go out at times, the buttons are a little scratchy, etc etc.

Don't get me wrong, when its not throwing a fit (which to be fair, isn't all that often, specially when it's warmed up), it sounds amazing and I have no subjective complaints about it, however, if you'd rather spare the "personality" that may come with a 29 year old amplifier, I'd say just go with the new class D stuff.

Do I regret getting my Denon PMA-560? Not really. Even with its problems, I am emotionally attached to it, I love the analog knobs and the sound of the relays when I turn it on (not so much when I'm listening to music and they cut off LOL) and it was a lovely piece of kit at some point in the history of Denon.

But unfortunately I cannot recommend it to anyone that doesn't share the same view, passion or patience for older audio equipment.

I plan to restore it to fully working condition, I'll take my time, but if you're new? Nothing replaces the feel of something that just works out of the box.

Go class D. :b

View attachment 113527
(speaker placement purely for picture purposes, I don't have them set up like this for listening lmao, pls don't yell at me for it)

Hate to be mean but I had to look up those speakers since I had never heard of them. They look terrible from these measurements and the tear down.

Also volume control position for a given volume tells you very little about the power output of your amp. What it relates to is the gain staging of your system and the efficiency of your speakers.

Thank you! I wasn't aware that cheap speakers aren't the best, I'm now enlightened on the topic.

I'm aware of the efficiency factor, I mentioned it in my reply, admitting to have overestimated the power I would need for my speakers.

 

[ahofer]

I find myself responding to people about electronics upgrades that the best amp/cables/DAC for you could very well be the one you already have (with wire it is a near certainty). It seems like you got the amp that someone else had, so good choice. Speakers, room, playback convenience are the places to invest your time and money.

 

[MikeFox]

I find myself responding to people about electronics upgrades that the best amp/cables/DAC for you could very well be the one you already have (with wire it is a near certainty). It seems like you got the amp that someone else had, so good choice. Speakers, room, playback convenience are the places to invest your time and money.

I have to agree! I went into this trying to find the unknown, before the listening setup I have, all I used to listen to music on was a pair of amazon basics headphones and Logitech X530 computer speakers. I've always found myself EQing towards the highs, listening to music very loudly because I felt underwhelmed by the sound quality, so one day I was like, let me see if I can find what makes me happy!

My current setup is as follows:
Foobar2000 and Jriver USB (or BT from my phone) into Loxjie D30, RCA out into my Denon PMA-560 and headphone out into my Superlux HD 668Bs with upgraded pads.

I spent about 500€ on my current setup, and if I had to do it again? I'd probably drop the DAC and my Denon. I'm happy with my speakers as an upgrade, but having had my AKAI stereo repaired and if I kept using the Sound Blaster Z as the source for my music, I wouldn't say I'd miss the 270€ difference, not with my current speakers and headphones anyways!

But, I learn from experience more so than from reading, I like experimenting, and I find myself listening to music in quieter volumes now and being able to find peace enjoying my 2000ish song collection.

I'm happy!

 

[Paulmac]

Aiyima A04 or the A07 . Ive used both of these, and they are very good for the money. My brother is a musician and he came over with his electric guitar once (dont see him much) and he played his instrument through my smsl AD 18 and small mission speakers. His view was that the sound was great, and the amp was very very fast. Apparently guitarists can tell when an amp is slow. Anyway he reckoned the sound was very good. Then again live music has a whole other way of being assessed I guessed. I sent him over an Aiyima AO7 and he uses that at home in his flat. The smsl amp gave up the ghost - however that was the first class d amp that has ever died on me.

 

[Bernard23]

A bit late to the party, but I just picked up a Denon PMR-725R from a local chap who is a telecoms engineer by day and does refurbs for fun on old gear. It's in good nick for a late 90s amp, and it's great. Only paid £80 for it, but it's bludgeoning my Diamonds into submission. It's a big sound alright, bit bright but the dynamics and soundstage are all there in spades. Definitely a used undiscovered gem.

 

[MikeFox]

A bit late to the party, but I just picked up a Denon PMR-725R from a local chap who is a telecoms engineer by day and does refurbs for fun on old gear. It's in good nick for a late 90s amp, and it's great. Only paid £80 for it, but it's bludgeoning my Diamonds into submission. It's a big sound alright, bit bright but the dynamics and soundstage are all there in spades. Definitely a used undiscovered gem.

Hey! I haven't had time to come here, funny you mentioned that, I did eventually upgrade my speakers earlier this year to Diamond 10.4s, on the same Denon PMA-560, I can say I've reached my sweet spot. Now I will be focusing on buying a higher end headphone (I upgraded from my Superlux to a Samson SR850 with BRAINWAVZ pads) because I want to see the ceiling of headphones, I want to experience what some of the best audio has to offer.

Super happy with my setup, and given your's is a R version of Denon amps, I assume you also get the convinience of IR volume control and such, something I wish my PMA-560 had. :b

Hope you're happy with your purchase, that does sound like a great deal!

Cheers!