Objectively measured/designed headphones?

[Robbo99999]

Well I got a few Harman tuned headphones and IEMs in the past.

K540, Philips SHE3590 IEMs, Blon BL-03 IEMs, NAD Viso HP50, Ostry KC06a.

They pretty much all sounded like each other in terms of fr response, some had more refinement than others, but the balance was the same, as I described in my previous post. Except for the NAD, which had a smooth upper-treble, but still was too emphasized in the upper-mids.

It could be that my ears are different from average, I don’t know. But, I also have the HD650, and even though it’s upper-mids are slightly emphasized, it’s slight, and not intrusive at all due to the low distortion.

You need very low distortion to pull such a fr curve off correctly in my experience. In practise, most transducers can’t do that.

I got the NAD HP50 too, smoothest headphone I own, and when solderdude measured it on his website it showed extremely low distortion (https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/nad-viso-hp50/) .....but NAD HP50 is also smooth in the treble in as much as lacks a bit of the upper treble and doesn't have crazy peaks up there (in terms of measurements on GRAS dummy heads, and also in most people's listening impressions)......it's a really great headphone that I like more than my Senn HD600, but NAD HP50 doesn't have the speaker-like quality of my AKG K702 (so that's my favourite......all headphones EQ'd to Harman Curve though).

Harman Curve isn't really a difficult to "pull off" like you say for most headphones when you EQ them to the Harman Curve....although the bass is generally the hardest part for them to completely match, with closed backed headphones most likely to do so....in fact the NAD HP50 we both mentioned, that does Harman Curve bass to perfection (I think) due to it's flat extension of the bass with no roll off down to 20Hz & below, and it also has super low distortion too. (In fact it makes me want to get some subs for my in room speakers!)

Having said that, quite often headphones have issues in the treble regions with crazy dips & peaks which makes them very difficult to EQ sucessfully to the Harman Curve. But, in general, it doesn't take much to "pull off" a Harman Curve for a headphone, or at least something close to it.

EQ'ing different headphones to the Harman Curve will produce different results in how they sound, general tonality will be roughly similar, but there's always some discernable difference, and for me it was choosing the best sounding headphone once it was EQ'd to the Harman Curve (AKG K702) because I knew Harman EQ improved every headphone I have....but it'll be different for different people in terms of whether you even like the Headphone Harman Curve & also subsequently which headphone suits you best once it has been EQ'd to the Headphone Harman Curve. If none of your headphones sound better or right after being EQ'd to the Headphone Harman Curve, then I think you can conclude you really don't fit the average anatomy mould, at which point it'd be best to either tweak different parts of the frequency curve around Headphone Harman Curve to work out which bits need to be changed, or instead use a completely different EQ process unrelated to measurements & the Headphone Harman Curve.

 

[Robbo99999]

Edit: Also, how can you say that such a huge peak on that graph is anywhere near perceptually neutral?

The complete "rollercoster ride" of a frequency response of the Headphone Harman Curve is due to the fact that our physical heads and ears (including ear canal) reduce/attenuate frequency response at the eardrum to greater or lesser levels depending on where on the 20Hz to 20kHz frequency spectrum it sits. So a flat/neutral perceived sound for most of the population (when measured at the eardrum) will look like the Headphone Harman Curve in this pic (the thick green line on this graph.....the orange line just happens to be a stock measurement of Senn HD600):

 

[100rounddrum]

I got the NAD HP50 too, smoothest headphone I own, and when solderdude measured it on his website it showed extremely low distortion (https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/nad-viso-hp50/) .....but NAD HP50 is also smooth in the treble in as much as lacks a bit of the upper treble and doesn't have crazy peaks up there (in terms of measurements on GRAS dummy heads, and also in most people's listening impressions)......it's a really great headphone that I like more than my Senn HD600, but NAD HP50 doesn't have the speaker-like quality of my AKG K702 (so that's my favourite......all headphones EQ'd to Harman Curve though).

Harman Curve isn't really a difficult to "pull off" like you say for most headphones when you EQ them to the Harman Curve....although the bass is generally the hardest part for them to completely match, with closed backed headphones most likely to do so....in fact the NAD HP50 we both mentioned, that does Harman Curve bass to perfection (I think) due to it's flat extension of the bass with no roll off down to 20Hz & below, and it also has super low distortion too. (In fact it makes me want to get some subs for my in room speakers!)
View attachment 96179
Having said that, quite often headphones have issues in the treble regions with crazy dips & peaks which makes them very difficult to EQ sucessfully to the Harman Curve. But, in general, it doesn't take much to "pull off" a Harman Curve for a headphone, or at least something close to it.

EQ'ing different headphones to the Harman Curve will produce different results in how they sound, general tonality will be roughly similar, but there's always some discernable difference, and for me it was choosing the best sounding headphone once it was EQ'd to the Harman Curve (AKG K702) because I knew Harman EQ improved every headphone I have....but it'll be different for different people in terms of whether you even like the Headphone Harman Curve & also subsequently which headphone suits you best once it has been EQ'd to the Headphone Harman Curve. If none of your headphones sound better or right after being EQ'd to the Headphone Harman Curve, then I think you can conclude you really don't fit the average anatomy mould, at which point it'd be best to either tweak different parts of the frequency curve around Headphone Harman Curve to work out which bits need to be changed, or instead use a completely different EQ process unrelated to measurements & the Headphone Harman Curve.

Oh, AKG K702 with the out of phase soundstage to create that illusion, and harsh upper-mids and treble texture. It explains why you think the Harman curve is neutral.

The HP50 would be better, if it would have a bit of foam dampening in the closed back cups. I thought that was the reason why they sounded rather harsh in the upper-mids.

Have you ever heard the Creative Aurvana Live? I think that would be a headphone (distortions aside, only talking about fr balance) that would be most enjoyable for the average consumer, if the bass would be more extended.

 

[Robbo99999]

Oh, AKG K702 with the out of phase soundstage to create that illusion, and harsh upper-mids and treble texture. It explains why you think the Harman curve is neutral.

The HP50 would be better, if it would have a bit of foam dampening in the closed back cups. I thought that was the reason why they sounded rather harsh in the upper-mids.

Have you ever heard the Creative Aurvana Live? I think that would be a headphone (distortions aside, only talking about fr balance) that would be most enjoyable for the average consumer, if the bass would be more extended.

Man, you got quite a lot to learn about "headphone science"..........and you should read my post where I say that I EQ'd my K702 to the Harman Curve, so their stock frequency response is irrelevant. Man...read my other posts that I've posted shortly before this one....digest some of it & read around the subject. You've got some knowledge gaps & logic gaps, I can only explain as well as I can as I have done to give you a basic understanding of the major principles, but I'm not going to engage with you if you don't read my posts.

I suggest you read about how the Harman Curve was created for speakers, and then also read up on how the Headphone Harman Curve was created. You don't seem to understand either....which is fine.....just don't assume that you do.

 

[100rounddrum]

The complete "rollercoster ride" of a frequency response of the Headphone Harman Curve is due to the fact that our physical heads and ears (including ear canal) reduce/attenuate frequency response at the eardrum to greater or lesser levels depending on where on the 20Hz to 20kHz frequency spectrum it sits. So a flat/neutral perceived sound for most of the population (when measured at the eardrum) will look like the Headphone Harman Curve in this pic (the thick green line on this graph.....the orange line just happens to be a stock measurement of Senn HD600):
View attachment 96180

Well, when you put on headphones, since they sit around your ear rather than in them, the pinna will resonate in the upper-mids before it hits your eardrum.

This is a well know scientific fact. So, adding an emphasize there for an on-the-ear or over-the-ear headphone, means you’ll get an accentuated upper-mids perception.

So I really don’t know why you say a headphone will attentuate that region, when it’s scientifcally known to be the opposite?

With IEMs, your pinna is by-passed thus making it less emphasized than a headphone, but your hearing still is naturally sensitive to that region due to your brains experience with sounds your whole life compensating for it.

HD600 is too bright in the upper-mids, HD650 is more neutral there.

 

[dmac6419]

Man, you got quite a lot to learn about "headphone science"..........and you should read my post where I say that I EQ'd my K702 to the Harman Curve, so their stock frequency response is irrelevant. Man...read my other posts that I've posted shortly before this one....digest some of it & read around the subject. You've got some knowledge gaps & logic gaps, I can only explain as well as I can as I have done to give you a basic understanding of the major principles, but I'm not going to engage with you if you don't read my posts.

I suggest you read about how the Harman Curve was created for speakers, and then also read up on how the Headphone Harman Curve was created. You don't seem to understand either....which is fine.....just don't assume that you do.

ouch

 

[Robbo99999]

Well, when you put on headphones, since they sit around your ear rather than in them, the pinna will resonate in the upper-mids before it hits your eardrum.

This is a well know scientific fact. So, adding an emphasize there for an on-the-ear or over-the-ear headphone, means you’ll get an accentuated upper-mids perception.

So I really don’t know why you say a headphone will attentuate that region, when it’s scientifcally known to be the opposite?

With IEMs, your pinna is by-passed thus making it less emphasized than a headphone, but your hearing still is naturally sensitive to that region due to your brains experience with sounds your whole life compensating for it.

HD600 is too bright in the upper-mids, HD650 is more neutral there.

I can tell you're using buzz words you've found on the internet rather than actually truly understanding & visualising the interactions & meanings. So I'm gonna leave you be....I've explained as best I can the major principles....it's down to you to try to understand my explanatory posts earlier, but I advise you read around the subject from closer to the source rather than just citing buzzwords you've found on random internet forums.

 

[100rounddrum]

Man, you got quite a lot to learn about "headphone science"..........and you should read my post where I say that I EQ'd my K702 to the Harman Curve, so their stock frequency response is irrelevant. Man...read my other posts that I've posted shortly before this one....digest some of it & read around the subject. You've got some knowledge gaps & logic gaps, I can only explain as well as I can as I have done to give you a basic understanding of the major principles, but I'm not going to engage with you if you don't read my posts.

I suggest you read about how the Harman Curve was created for speakers, and then also read up on how the Headphone Harman Curve was created. You don't seem to understand either....which is fine.....just don't assume that you do.

How can you say a headphone attentuates the upper-mids area, when it goes through the pinna first, which is scientifically established that it boosts that area?

Also, have you ever read about brain compensation when using IEMs?

Do you even listen to music, or do you just read graphs and what some people say about them, and go off blindlessly of that?

 

[Robbo99999]

How can you say a headphone attentuates the upper-mids area, when it goes through the pinna first, which is scientifically established that it boosts that area?

Also, have you ever read about brain composition when using IEMs?

Do you even listen to music, or do you just read graphs and what some people say about them, and go off blindlessly of that?

Night night, refer to my previous post.

 

[100rounddrum]

Night night, refer to my previous post.

I read and understood it.

You’re assuming our ears are hearing only through the eardrum, which is absurd. We have a pinna that reflects sound, mainly in the 3 - 5khz area with over and on-ear headphones.

And when we use IEMs (I hope you know what an IEM is, otherwise search it on Google), our brain is compensating for the bypass of our pinna, due to how we experience everyday sounds our whole life.

Measurment rigs do not do that. Even when someone tries to set a value for compensation, it will simply not come out as neutral on actual listening, without someone having hearing damage in that range.

Measurment rigs have no brains like we do for compensation, you know. Also, distortion is a major thing, for if a headphone is gonna sound smooth and refined, or harsh, no matter the fr-response.

 

[100rounddrum]

Also, the K70x series, create phase distortion to create sense of a “speaker like” sound. With this distortion, the actual placement location of instruments within that stage, becomes less precise.

It also makes the music distant and disjointed as a whole.

Thus also, removing it even further away from being a neutral sound, since it isn’t natural for a headphone with that design to produce such a wide sound.

 

[Robbo99999]

I'm sorry, but you're just coming out with random unconnected snippets of "occasional fact" without any connection between your sentences nor between your posts, so it's not possible to engage conversation with you. What is clear is that you have things to learn in order to connect all the dots and develop a real understanding of how "headphone science"/"audio science" and Harman hangs together. Once you understand it, then it's relatively simple to visualise how it all fits together. I tried to explain broadly/generally how it works in some of my longer posts to you earlier, but you chose not to engage, so I'm gonna have to leave you be. If you want to learn some more try to find some references to the work Harman did on headphones and how that relates to the speaker Harman Curve....it's possible you might need to read around some more basic "audio science" as you research it to understand it as it unravels. There's even good information on it within this site if you can find it.....with often some experienced members (as well as Amir) cutting & pasting some slides & providing links that describe how headphone Harman Curve and speaker Harman Curve have been researched & created.

 

[Feelas]

And when we use IEMs (I hope you know what an IEM is, otherwise search it on Google), our brain is compensating for the bypass of our pinna, due to how we experience everyday sounds our whole life.

Measurment rigs do not do that. Even when someone tries to set a value for compensation, it will simply not come out as neutral on actual listening, without someone having hearing damage in that range.

Stop treating people like morons. The "I hope you know what IEM is" shows that you're not really interested in keeping a civilized discussion going. Smirky and arrogant, you could at least not spread misinformation, because it's clear you haven't done your homework.
And going further, you're wrong. You can easily measure the HRTF of a specific HATS (say, GRAS 43AG) and use the averaged response to compensate. All the resonances (even the simulated ear-canal resonances) are possible to be accounted for, thus you'd need to provide some evidence of compensation being invalid & not simulating the real interaction.

The pinna boost itself is angle-dependant and doesn't entirely apply when faced with almost-90-degrees-like angle of attack. That's pretty much why angled headphones lend itself to a better soundstaging & speaker-like field. And the response IS angle dependant, as any real paper shows.

The non-sense about K70x series producing phase distortion is based on what, Rtings graphs?