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Noisy Purifi amplifiers

SIY

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May I please suggest looking at Amir's review of Purifi DIY block 1ET400A,

picture of 1kHz wide spectrum: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...hz-fft-spectrum-audio-measurements-png.28895/

index.php


The original complaint of the thread starter was that some hiss was [barely] audible when pressing an ear directly to twitter. My answer was - that's fine, don't worry, that's not an indication that something is [inherently] wrong with the amp. You seem to have problems with it... and you also have other problems, like with objective scientific finding that females' hearing degrades less than males' with age. Excuse me ... these are NOT my problems.

Also, may I please ask you to refrain from any foul language as it pollutes ASR?
Keep digging.
 
D

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It would help if you dialed down the smugness a bit. You can have all the brains in the world, but it won't do you much good if you come off as a d##k.

I think we can all agree that Class-D amps are "noisy", but that good designs also push the vast majority of the noise into the ultrasonics.

The only thing we disagree about is whether the remainder is enough to cause audible hiss.
I am lost. ehhh ... Was it me who wrote: "Check my bio." ?

Well - audible hiss at what distance from what sensitivity twitter by what person? More precisely: even if it's [barely] audible at 0m distance by a much better than the average ear, is it a concern? I think it is not.
 

sarumbear

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May I please suggest looking at Amir's review of Purifi DIY block 1ET400A,

picture of 1kHz wide spectrum: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...hz-fft-spectrum-audio-measurements-png.28895/

index.php


The original complaint of the thread starter was that some hiss was [barely] audible when pressing an ear directly to twitter. My answer was - that's fine, don't worry, that's not an indication that something is [inherently] wrong with the amp. You seem to have problems with it... and you also have other problems, like with objective scientific finding that females' hearing degrades less than males' with age. Excuse me ... these are NOT my problems.
You are still avoiding to answer your hypotheses that class-D amplifiers are inherently hissy. The chart you posted shows noise at 20kHz and below is less than -120dB. Is that what you call hiss?

If not please relieve us from our misery and tell us what it is?

Also, may I please ask you to refrain from any foul language as it pollutes ASR?
I can’t see anyone using foul language towards you on this forum. Either report that person or show us what you see as foul. Blaming the entire thread is not fair and it’s rude by itself.
 
D

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You are still avoiding to answer your hypotheses that class-D amplifiers are inherently hissy. The chart you posted shows noise at 20kHz and below is less than -120dB. Is that what you call hiss?

If not please relieve us from our misery and tell us what it is?


I can’t see anyone using foul language towards you on this forum. Either report that person or show us what you see as foul. Blaming the entire thread is not fair and it’s rude by itself.
Dear @sarumbear, the picture I reposted shows the hissing spectrum quite clearly. Now, have a good day!
 

MaxBuck

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It's possible for an individual amplifier to exhibit hiss even if most other units produced by its manufacturer do not.

I'm not sure what the point of this discussion actually is.
 

boXem

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May I please suggest looking at Amir's review of Purifi DIY block 1ET400A,

picture of 1kHz wide spectrum: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...hz-fft-spectrum-audio-measurements-png.28895/

index.php


The original complaint of the thread starter was that some hiss was [barely] audible when pressing an ear directly to twitter. My answer was - that's fine, don't worry, that's not an indication that something is [inherently] wrong with the amp. You seem to have problems with it... and you also have other problems, like with objective scientific finding that females' hearing degrades less than males' with age. Excuse me ... these are NOT my problems.

Also, may I please ask you to refrain from any foul language as it pollutes ASR?
I guess you meant 1 MHz spectrum. If you zoom in the audible band you will find something completely flat and extremely low. I also guess that you know noise shaping theory better than I do.
 

Rottmannash

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I am lost. ehhh ... Was it me who wrote: "Check my bio." ?

Well - audible hiss at what distance from what sensitivity twitter by what person? More precisely: even if it's [barely] audible at 0m distance by a much better than the average ear, is it a concern? I think it is not.
twittter? Methinks you meant tweeter.
 

sarumbear

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Dear @sarumbear, the picture I reposted shows the hissing spectrum quite clearly. Now, have a good day!
Maybe English is not your primary language but hiss is a broadband noise that spans the entire audible spectrum but with more intensity in the high frequencies.

The audible spectrum is the very small section on the left of your chart where the signal is below -120dB.

Have you finally comprehended what we mean by hiss?
 

SIY

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Maybe English is not your primary language but hiss is a broadband noise that spans the entire audible spectrum but with more intensity in the high frequencies.

The audible spectrum is the very small section on the left of your chart where the signal is below -120dB.

Have you finally comprehended what we mean by hiss?
When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.
 

cicastol

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May I please suggest looking at Amir's review of Purifi DIY block 1ET400A,

picture of 1kHz wide spectrum: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...hz-fft-spectrum-audio-measurements-png.28895/

index.php
This is not a 1KHz wide spectrum but over 1,2MHz wide showing inaudible switching frequency, you are continuing spreading BS and trolling on this 3d.
 
D

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This is not a 1KHz wide spectrum but over 1,2MHz wide showing inaudible switching frequency, you are continuing spreading BS and trolling on this 3d.
Some more trolling BS:

The noise of the Class AB amp consists of low-freq ~1/f noise and the flat, white noise shelf. Due to the wide-band feedback nature, the level of this shelf is determined mostly by the input cascade. The shelf lasts ... into MHz range.

If the amp is measured on its own, the thermal input impedance (10kOhm "standard") noise dominates. For "standard" 30dB and 20kHz bandwidth it becomes ~ 50uV, which is about -112dB re full-scale signal 100W 4Ohm amp. Of course, it is audible from a 90+dBW tweeter (well, grammar corrector did not screw me up, finally) from 0cm distance to a median listener. 90dBW loudspeaker can (potentially) produce 110dB at 100W at 1m. 0dBSPL at 1kHz is audible to 50% of listeners in headphones, thus about -10dBSPL shall be audible in free air. However, almost no one complains if the listener is at >=1m distance unless it's anechoic room and the ear has already adapted.

If the amplifier is measured with the input shorted, the noise is quite a bit lower. Now it's defined by the voltage noise density of the input cascade. You can often assume self-noise to be > 10dB lower than for the open amp.

The noise of the class D amp consists of the same ~1/f + white noise of the input cascade, same as for AB, plus Class D - specific high-frequency rising noise, ~f (or even steeper, ~f^2). One of the reasons I already mentioned: feedback takes a derivative of the output cascade's noise and distortions, hence the ~f nature of preemphasis, the aforementioned "hiss". It's even higher for "digital" coarsely-quantized PWM Class D amps using noise shaping explicitly. The detailed explanation is not for the uneducated. I looked through Bruno Putzey's publications - he definitely knows the theory and plots the right figures, but he did not go into an explanation I could refer to. It requires the reader knowledge of math and feedback control theory at PhD / MSc in automatic control which I can't assume as existing after reading some of your illiterate comments.

I've been through many episodes clearly displaying that claims of understanding of the theory of feedback control have nothing to do with reality. Once in my experience, while skiing in the mountains, a friend of mine told me that an optical system [he worked on for a few years] had been frequently going out of control. That optical system was an optical last mile, with a pair of transceivers A and B, each having a laser and receiving photodiode. The initial working point was set by a technician. The system was designed to remain in the photodiode’s working zone in any conditions by adjusting the laser power, driving it lower when it’s clear, and higher when it’s raining or foggy. As the fog affects both transceivers, the indication of atmospheric losses was read locally, from A transceiver‘s photodiode to affect the same A transceiver’s laser’s average power (same on B). However, a way too often transceivers were jumping out of phase: A was transmitting on the highest power and B on the lowest (or vice versa). To me, it was immediately obvious that while the feedback was negative for common mode, it was positive for a differential mode. Of course, they had to use “A” photodiode to adjust “B” laser - but that was not possible within their architecture.
To them, it was not obvious at all: the company fought with the problem for at least a couple of years, with nearly 200 engineers and endless consultants and professors. All of these engineers and scientists learned control theory in Universities, everyone passed the exams, but no one could apply the theory to practice (BTW, eventually, the company went belly up). If you are like those engineers and incapable of understanding what I wrote - feel free to call it BS, I really don't care.

Of course, depending on the conditions of measurement (open/close), the total noise spectrum may look different. The upward ~f slope may be clearly present or maybe somewhat masked by the white noise of the preamp. In any case, it does exist for any Class D topology I am aware of.

On that, I'd like to wish you all the best!
 

sarumbear

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Some more trolling BS:

The noise of the Class AB amp consists of low-freq ~1/f noise and the flat, white noise shelf. Due to the wide-band feedback nature, the level of this shelf is determined mostly by the input cascade. The shelf lasts ... into MHz range.

If the amp is measured on its own, the thermal input impedance (10kOhm "standard") noise dominates. For "standard" 30dB and 20kHz bandwidth it becomes ~ 50uV, which is about -112dB re full-scale signal 100W 4Ohm amp. Of course, it is audible from a 90+dBW tweeter (well, grammar corrector did not screw me up, finally) from 0cm distance to a median listener. 90dBW loudspeaker can (potentially) produce 110dB at 100W at 1m. 0dBSPL at 1kHz is audible to 50% of listeners in headphones, thus about -10dBSPL shall be audible in free air. However, almost no one complains if the listener is at >=1m distance unless it's anechoic room and the ear has already adapted.

If the amplifier is measured with the input shorted, the noise is quite a bit lower. Now it's defined by the voltage noise density of the input cascade. You can often assume self-noise to be > 10dB lower than for the open amp.

The noise of the class D amp consists of the same ~1/f + white noise of the input cascade, same as for AB, plus Class D - specific high-frequency rising noise, ~f (or even steeper, ~f^2). One of the reasons I already mentioned: feedback takes a derivative of the output cascade's noise and distortions, hence the ~f nature of preemphasis, the aforementioned "hiss". It's even higher for "digital" coarsely-quantized PWM Class D amps using noise shaping explicitly. The detailed explanation is not for the uneducated. I looked through Bruno Putzey's publications - he definitely knows the theory and plots the right figures, but he did not go into an explanation I could refer to. It requires the reader knowledge of math and feedback control theory at PhD / MSc in automatic control which I can't assume as existing after reading some of your illiterate comments.

I've been through many episodes clearly displaying that claims of understanding of the theory of feedback control have nothing to do with reality. Once in my experience, while skiing in the mountains, a friend of mine told me that an optical system [he worked on for a few years] had been frequently going out of control. That optical system was an optical last mile, with a pair of transceivers A and B, each having a laser and receiving photodiode. The initial working point was set by a technician. The system was designed to remain in the photodiode’s working zone in any conditions by adjusting the laser power, driving it lower when it’s clear, and higher when it’s raining or foggy. As the fog affects both transceivers, the indication of atmospheric losses was read locally, from A transceiver‘s photodiode to affect the same A transceiver’s laser’s average power (same on B). However, a way too often transceivers were jumping out of phase: A was transmitting on the highest power and B on the lowest (or vice versa). To me, it was immediately obvious that while the feedback was negative for common mode, it was positive for a differential mode. Of course, they had to use “A” photodiode to adjust “B” laser - but that was not possible within their architecture.
To them, it was not obvious at all: the company fought with the problem for at least a couple of years, with nearly 200 engineers and endless consultants and professors. All of these engineers and scientists learned control theory in Universities, everyone passed the exams, but no one could apply the theory to practice (BTW, eventually, the company went belly up). If you are like those engineers and incapable of understanding what I wrote - feel free to call it BS, I really don't care.

Of course, depending on the conditions of measurement (open/close), the total noise spectrum may look different. The upward ~f slope may be clearly present or maybe somewhat masked by the white noise of the preamp. In any case, it does exist for any Class D topology I am aware of.

On that, I'd like to wish you all the best!
He likes to show off doesn’t he? He seem to know his science, shame that he cannot stay on topic nor comprehend real world results.

However, I personally found him rude. When someone asks a simple question you don’t reply with a lecture nor with off topic stories of your friend. That belongs to politics not science, nor engineering.
 

BlackTalon

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I am glad this thread has taken such a humerous turn. I only wish I was smart enough in the maths to understand it so I could laugh even more.
 

Matias

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Additional service message to all the cable routing and box size armchair engineers: that's unfortunately not how things work.
If not giving away secrets of the trade, would you mind then telling the OP what would solve his issue with higher noise floor than spec on his amp?
 

restorer-john

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If not giving away secrets of the trade, would you mind then telling the OP what would solve his issue with higher noise floor than spec on his amp?

He clearly needs to buy a BoXem amp... :)
 

boXem

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If not giving away secrets of the trade, would you mind then telling the OP what would solve his issue with higher noise floor than spec on his amp?
Well, the message is mainly that diagnosing such an issue based on pictures is almost impossible. What is needed is to plug an ADC, look at the noise spectrum to identify potential sources (mains, SMPS,...) then start working on the identified sources.
 
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