Need to decide: JDS Atom/Topping D50s, Monoprice THX AAA Balanced THX AAA 887/SMSL SU-8 V2, TOPPING DX7 Pro

[Celty]

That's gonna be a killer rig, congrats!! And the HE4xx cans are very good sounding for the current price of $130, but the build quality makes me a little nervous.

Thanks! On the HE4XX, yea, I have read about some HiFiMan issues, but mine seem fine so far (crosses fingers) and indeed they are great sounding. The HD6XX's are certainly awesome. They are different sounding, though depending on the source material I am not sure which I prefer, so it will be interesting if my perceptions change with the new setup.

 

[maxxevv]

The HD6XX are really good for solo vocals such as Stacy Kent, Diana Krall and the likes. The HE4XX is really better at stuff that needs a bit more air and speed in their presentation. Such as large orchestral works electronic music.
I have both, the HE4XX grills being modded as on my profile pict.

 

[MRphotography]

According to the SMSL reps here on ASR, its not just a simple facelift. The underlying DAC chip will be changed. And of course the pricepoint will be updated accordingly as well.

They didn't mention what it was but a long shot guess from my part would be a dual-AK4493 setup or a ES9038Pro or even a AK4499.
The last two of which are less likely in my opinion. Since they already have a slew of offerings running the top-end chips and would likely push a pretty high price premium onto the SU-8S too.

Do you know when it is set to release? I just dropped the coin on the SSMSL SU-8. I was kind of in the same boat as the OP, and went with the SMSL SU-8 and the SMSL SP200 THX AAA-888 Headphone Amp for my HD6XX's.

 

[Celty]

Time to update! I have the Monolith 887 amp and SU-8 DAC! The amp is connected via RCA cables to my STX sound card and via XLR interconnects to the SU-8, which is being fed via USB. The only thing I am still waiting for are the XLR replacement cables for the HD6XX and HE4XX.

So right now this gives me the opportunity to do some A / B listening comparisons between the amp used with the STX as the DAC and the SU-8. So far I am really happy with the setup. The differences are actually pretty subtle. I am surprised how well the STX holds up. I would give the SU-8 a slight edge. I am leaving the SU-8 on stock settings as far as sound profile / filters at this point.

As to the 887 amp vs. the STX headphone amp, again the STX does pretty well, but there are discernible differences to my ears. It's not easy to describe, but for my impressions there is just more distinct detail in how background instruments and backup vocals are portrayed. The STX does well in bass dynamics, but the 887 seems to respond with more authority.

I installed the Equalizer APO and Peace GUI front end, which lets me replicate the the EQ I was doing in the Xonar STX Audio Center software. I do more EQ for the HE4XX, based on the EQ done by Oluv:

10-band EQ settings the HE4XX:
Shanling M1:
32Hz +4dB
64Hz +2dB
125Hz +1dB
250Hz +0.5dB
500Hz 0dB
1000Hz -1dB
2000Hz +3dB
4000Hz +2dB
8000Hz -4dB
16000Hz 0dB

I actually have found it improves the sound from these headphones. For the HD6XX, I add a mild bass EQ increase and reduce the 8000Hz a tad. I'll be interested to see how the headphones are affected by the XLR cables. I know the power on tap will significantly be upped, but we'll see if there are any other perceived differences. At the moment I have the 887 gain on high, and approximately 3/4 volume on the amp. I'm using the volume on the DAC for adjustments (with current tracks SU-8 volume is around 24-26ish). Just experimenting.

Any suggestions on using this combo would be welcomed. Until the XLR cables arrive I am just enjoying the SE outcome and having fun doing a lot of listening. I am thankful to you guys who helped me get to this point

 

[Tks]

Be careful with using the 887 on High Gain, if it's anything like the 789, feeding it 2V or higher from the DAC will cause it to clip. Stick to Medium gain and max the volume if you truly need that much power. (I can't even max out the volume on low gain without blowing my ears to pieces unless it's some superb orchestral music with wide dynamic range sweeps).

 

[Celty]

Be careful with using the 887 on High Gain, if it's anything like the 789, feeding it 2V or higher from the DAC will cause it to clip. Stick to Medium gain and max the volume if you truly need that much power. (I can't even max out the volume on low gain without blowing my ears to pieces unless it's some superb orchestral music with wide dynamic range sweeps).

In terms of volume, I am not driving things to anything near blowng my ears. The rationale for setting the the 887 to high gain but keeping volume reasonable via the DAC is what you mention, having lots of "headroom" for dynamics.

Are you saying the settings I am using are causing the 887 to clip even though the volume is not excessive? At least audibly, I am not detecting it yet. Although MonolithGuy posted,

"Just an FYI, for the 887 we upgraded over 50 internal components to increase performance:

5 Opamps – same opamps as 888 to reduce noise

32 Resistors – Upgraded to reduce noise

12 Capacitors – Upgraded to reduce distortion

I'm glad to see there is interest in the unit!"

I know that the 887 and 789 are essentially the same design. If my approach is in error, I will correct it. I also do like controlling the volume with the DAC because of the remote.

 

[Tks]

In terms of volume, I am not driving things to anything near blowng my ears. The rationale for setting the the 887 to high gain but keeping volume reasonable via the DAC is what you mention, having lots of "headroom" for dynamics.

Are you saying the settings I am using are causing the 887 to clip even though the volume is not excessive? At least audibly, I am not detecting it yet. Although MonolithGuy posted,

"Just an FYI, for the 887 we upgraded over 50 internal components to increase performance:

5 Opamps – same opamps as 888 to reduce noise

32 Resistors – Upgraded to reduce noise

12 Capacitors – Upgraded to reduce distortion

I'm glad to see there is interest in the unit!"

I know that the 887 and 789 are essentially the same design. If my approach is in error, I will correct it. I also do like controlling the volume with the DAC because of the remote.

I don't know how loud you're driving it. Also these so called "dynamics" is something I don't understand what people are talking about. I suppose with respect to dynamic range at full output there is something to be said about. But there is no way anyone is listening at full output from both DAC and AMP to ever even think they're getting the "full dynamics" of the device to begin with. Certainly no chance with any modern mainstream music.

As for for these "upgraded internal components" those are just declaratory statements, until they are proven with actual metrics. When he says the parts are reducing noise, and distortion. Yeah, okay - by how much precisely?

 

[strangeskies]

When he says the parts are reducing noise, and distortion. Yeah, okay - by how much precisely?

Do you want/need more than the measurements comparing the various THX implementations on this very site? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

 

[Celty]

I don't know how loud you're driving it. Also these so called "dynamics" is something I don't understand what people are talking about. I suppose with respect to dynamic range at full output there is something to be said about. But there is no way anyone is listening at full output from both DAC and AMP to ever even think they're getting the "full dynamics" of the device to begin with. Certainly no chance with any modern mainstream music.

As for for these "upgraded internal components" those are just declaratory statements, until they are proven with actual metrics. When he says the parts are reducing noise, and distortion. Yeah, okay - by how much precisely?

My thinking on this may be without technical merit, it is just my thinking. That is with amp volume at 2/3 to 3/4 ish, the amp has a good portion of it's capacity available for sudden demand - "on tap", such as percussion or symphonic transitions, even though the volume of the DAC is not at a high level, so the actual average listening volume is moderate.

I suppose this is based primarily on hearing the difference between a low powered amplifier that will make sufficient volume with a given set of headphones, and then hearing the same headphones powered by a higher wattage amplifier that makes a big difference in bringing out the potential they have. I'm sure I'm not articulating this well, as a lay person in the technical aspects of DAC and amplifier interaction. At least I am educable

 

[Tks]

My thinking on this may be without technical merit, it is just my thinking. That is with amp volume at 2/3 to 3/4 ish, the amp has a good portion of it's capacity available for sudden demand - "on tap", such as percussion or symphonic transitions, even though the volume of the DAC is not at a high level, so the actual average listening volume is moderate.

I suppose this is based primarily on hearing the difference between an low powered amplifier that will make sufficient volume with a given set of headphones, and then hearing the same headphones powered by a higher wattage amplifier that makes a big difference in bringing out the potential they have. I'm sure I'm not articulating this well, as a lay person in the technical aspects of DAC and amplifier interaction. At least I am educable

How about looking at it this way. A more simple way I imagine.

Unless you have a DAC that bottlenecks the Dynamic Range of the amp...

DAC for example: 115dB Dynamic Range rating
AMP for example: 125dB Dynamic Range rating

Lets say one or the other will be left at 3/4th ish like you mentioned, while the other is at full output to make this concept easier to understand.

If we leave the Amp at the standard 2V/4V (for this example, this being the max output), and its now capable of 125dB DR, we are going to have the DAC at that 3/4th level, thus producing 85.25dB max Dynamic Range.

If we leave the Dac at the standard 2V/4V (for this example, this also being the DAC's max output), and its' now capable of it's max 115dB DR. We then lower the Amp to 3/4th level instead, and now the amp producing 93.75dB of max Dynamic Range.

So it seems to me, whichever device is cleaner, that's the one I would mess around with volume if I cared about Dynamic Range only for example. But then again...

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I am also a layman and don't have a full grasp on how many things are calculated (like this whole "on tap" concept.. if that was the case, what is volume control even doing? If someone was to produce a piece of music with massive inter-sample peaks or something, could we theoretically get the amp to output volume as if the knob was turned 4/4th (100%) of the way turned up.

I don't know what the headroom theory is all about outside of context of intersample peaks with respect to potential clipping and such. Likewise how or what determines clipping depending on gain without actually testing the device. So with all I said, I could be literally talking out of my ass. >_<

 

[Celty]

How about looking at it this way. A more simple way I imagine.

Unless you have a DAC that bottlenecks the Dynamic Range of the amp...

DAC for example: 115dB Dynamic Range rating
AMP for example: 125dB Dynamic Range rating

Lets say one or the other will be left at 3/4th ish like you mentioned, while the other is at full output to make this concept easier to understand.

If we leave the Amp at the standard 2V/4V (for this example, this being the max output), and its now capable of 125dB DR, we are going to have the DAC at that 3/4th level, thus producing 85.25dB max Dynamic Range.

If we leave the Dac at the standard 2V/4V (for this example, this also being the DAC's max output), and its' now capable of it's max 115dB DR. We then lower the Amp to 3/4th level instead, and now the amp producing 93.75dB of max Dynamic Range.

So it seems to me, whichever device is cleaner, that's the one I would mess around with volume if I cared about Dynamic Range only for example. But then again...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am also a layman and don't have a full grasp on how many things are calculated (like this whole "on tap" concept.. if that was the case, what is volume control even doing? If someone was to produce a piece of music with massive inter-sample peaks or something, could we theoretically get the amp to output volume as if the knob was turned 4/4th (100%) of the way turned up.

I don't know what the headroom theory is all about outside of context of intersample peaks with respect to potential clipping and such. Likewise how or what determines clipping depending on gain without actually testing the device. So with all I said, I could be literally talking out of my ass. >_<

LOL, thanks much. I think I followed your logic, but I need to learn more as I go.. I can tell you that I have acquired far more understanding and knowledge than I had previously thanks to this forum.

 

[Tks]

Trust me, I’m still learning a bunch as well, I continue sometimes posting on the noob forum even still. Though it feels like 98% of people know better, and the other 2% I feel like I know better are inactive accounts that never post

 

[Celty]

I thought just for giggles that I would see how my SteelSeries Arctis Pro Headphones would do plugged into the 887 / SU-8. These are supposed to be "high end gaming" headphones that have a built-in microphone and came came paired with a SteelSeries "GameDac". The specs on these closed back headphones are:

Neodymium Drivers
40 mm / 1.6 inches

Headphone Frequency Response
10–40,000 Hz

Headphone Sensitivity
102 dB SPL

Headphone Impedance
32 Ohm

Headphone Total Harmonic Distortion
<1%

Despite the reviews that extolled great sound from the Arctis Pro and GameDac combo, I was underwhelmed with the sound when I got them. I wondered if driving them from my STX soundcard would make a difference, and was surprised that it made a significant and apparent improvement. So plugging into my new setup, I fired them up. Wow, I was amazed. They sounded like a different set of headphones!

The first thing I noted is that I needed to increase the volume on the SU-8 by quite a bit (as in going from 24 to 36) to level them to where I have been listening with my HD6XX and HE4XX cans. The Arctis is obviously far harder to drive than my other headphones. Edit: haha, so silly of me, these headphones have a volume dial right where you tend to pick them up and once corrected, I needed to turn DOWN DAC volume to around 16! Nevertheless the sound improvement stands. But once you give them what they need, as my 887 certainly can, they really reward you. Now I will drive the headphones from the separate AMP / DAC, and use the STX just for the microphone input.

It is surprising that gaming headphones would benefit so much from top quality amplification and DAC, but I'm happy as can be that I now have such a great sounding solution when I am gaming. Not why I went with the 887 / SU-8, but definitely a nice bonus.

 

[Berwhale]

Trust me, I’m still learning a bunch as well, I continue sometimes posting on the noob forum even still. Though it feels like 98% of people know better, and the other 2% I feel like I know better are inactive accounts that never post

I read this the other day which I think is pertinent...

"The surest way to prevent yourself from learning a topic is to believe you already know it."

From James Clear -

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1152563329552048128

 

[Berwhale]

The HD6XX are really good for solo vocals such as Stacy Kent, Diana Krall and the likes. The HE4XX is really better at stuff that needs a bit more air and speed in their presentation. Such as large orchestral works electronic music.
I have both, the HE4XX grills being modded as on my profile pict.

At the risk of going down the rabbit hole, what did the grill mod achieve?

 

[Celty]

I read this the other day which I think is pertinent...

"The surest way to prevent yourself from learning a topic is to believe you already know it."

From James Clear -

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1152563329552048128

Or as attributed to Will Rogers:

"It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we do know that just ain't so."

 

[maxxevv]

At the risk of going down the rabbit hole, what did the grill mod achieve?

It just enhances the effect of "airiness" in subjective speak. But you do lose a little tiny bit of bass. Though what's left is still a good amount. Not that its very obvious, but that is the trade-off to my ears.

 

[Celty]

Update: Hooray! The Periapt XLR cables came to their home today. The HE4XX cables are smartly clothed in navy blue, while the HD6XX cables are kitted out in red. After the plugging in ceremony conducted with a coffee with Bailey's, I am in a quandary. I have read that this kind of cable change to XLR should not make much or any difference, but my ears are telling me this is not true.

Maybe it is just a placebo effect, but darn it seems quite distinct to me. Could a change be produced not by the cables per se, but the difference in the internal circuitry of the 887 between the SE and balanced outputs? I know the SE output is rated at 32 ohms: 1600mW, while XLR output is rated at 32 ohms: 6000mW. After trying for a volume level equivalent listening adjustment It still just seems like a quality improvement.

What is going on in the signal path / circuitry between the two outputs that actually accounts for the power differential? Am I deluded or perhaps suffering from Bailey's Syndrome (symptoms include a general sense of well-being and contentment with the world).

BTW the Periapt cables appear to be well made - going for straight forward functional quality over jewelry and bling, I am happy with them.

 

[Berwhale]

+1 for Bailey's syndrome.

 

[maxxevv]

If you can, level match with a suitable measuring device for either volume or voltage levels between the 2 outputs. Ideally have someone swap and adjust for you. And you not knowing which is which.

A less dramatic observation will likely result.