macOS vs. Windows vs. Linux

[Berwhale]

November 20th was the 38th anniversary of TOS 1.0

I replaced the aforementioned BBC Master 128 with an Atari 1040STE, so TOS 1.06 was my next OS (The Amiga vs Atari debate back then was somewhat similar to the PC/Mac debate going on in this thread)

 

[Axo1989]

Take a look at the poll again. It definitely shows more developers using Windows than Mac. The thing about the poll is that the percentages do not add up to 100%. So, like I said, take it with a grain of salt.

I'm pretty sure @Axo1989 was referring to the poll at the top of this thread (closer to home) where macOS leads Windows.

Yes, my second comment referred to the poll in this thread.

 

[anmpr1]

So you could run a Windows app as if it was an OS/2 app, but OS/2 was actually running the Windows subsystem in the background.

IBM sold two versions. One included a Win license along with Windows 3.1 discs as part of the package. The other incorporated your own copy of Win if you already had it on your machine. My retail version also came with a small collection of applications--I remember a word processor called DeScribe. I think some games were included. I also remember the Config.sys file being a lot larger and more configurable than whatever I was used to with DOS or Win. I liked the desktop layout--they called it Presentation Manager I believe. With OS/2, whenever Windows crashed it didn't take down the system. I remember just shutting down the hung Windows process, and restarting it.

I think IBMs vision was to bundle OS/2 for corporate use along with their expensive proprietary Microchannel PCs. Development-wise, Gates always said he was on board, totally. Like you could ever trust what he said. In an issue of Byte (one of the more interesting PC mags of the day) Bill more or less suggested there would be two rings to rule them all--a version of 'regular' Windows for consumer/home use, and OS/2 for corporate use. Of course he had his own ideas hidden in his back pocket, and everyone knows how it turned out.

God knows how much $$ IBM sank into the project, with nothing to show for it. I guess they now have the profitable RHEL as their 'last laugh'. After Ballmer went around telling everyone how that was a 'cancer'.

Other memories... Steve Jobs' NeXTSTEP OS, along with his hardware Cube--I guess that more or less still lives on with OSX, or whatever Apple is calling their desktop. Amiga, BeOS, and some other stragglers come to mind. Each with their own fans.

 

[Moonbase]

IBM sold two versions. One included a Win license along with Windows 3.1 discs as part of the package. The other incorporated your own copy of Win if you already had it on your machine. My retail version also came with a small collection of applications--I remember a word processor called DeScribe. I think some games were included. I also remember the Config.sys file being a lot larger and more configurable than whatever I was used to with DOS or Win. I liked the desktop layout--they called it Presentation Manager I believe. With OS/2, whenever Windows crashed it didn't take down the system. I remember just shutting down the hung Windows process, and restarting it.

I think IBMs vision was to bundle OS/2 for corporate use along with their expensive proprietary Microchannel PCs. Development-wise, Gates always said he was on board, totally. Like you could ever trust what he said. In an issue of Byte (one of the more interesting PC mags of the day) Bill more or less suggested there would be two rings to rule them all--a version of 'regular' Windows for consumer/home use, and OS/2 for corporate use. Of course he had his own ideas hidden in his back pocket, and everyone knows how it turned out.

God knows how much $$ IBM sank into the project, with nothing to show for it. I guess they now have the profitable RHEL as their 'last laugh'. After Ballmer went around telling everyone how that was a 'cancer'.

Other memories... Steve Jobs' NeXTSTEP OS, along with his hardware Cube--I guess that more or less still lives on with OSX, or whatever Apple is calling their desktop. Amiga, BeOS, and some other stragglers come to mind. Each with their own fans.

I seam to remember that gates was the project manager for Apple when they developed their gui.
Jobs accused gates of stealing IP to develop Windows 1.0. So they are all related?

 

[Esprit]

For those who use a Mac, what mouse do you use?

 

[Berwhale]

I seam to remember that gates was the project manager for Apple when they developed their gui.
Jobs accused gates of stealing IP to develop Windows 1.0. So they are all related?

No, Microsoft wrote a lot of software for the original Macintosh, Bill worked with Apple, he didn't work for Apple. The original concepts, know as WIMP (Windows, Icon, Mouse, Pointer), behind graphical user interfaces (GUIs) like Mac OS, Windows, GEM, etc. originated from Xerox PARC labs... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIMP_(computing)

 

[anmpr1]

No, Microsoft wrote a lot of software for the original Macintosh, Bill worked with Apple, he didn't work for Apple. The original concepts, know as WIMP (Windows, Icon, Mouse, Pointer), behind graphical user interfaces (GUIs) like Mac OS, Windows, GEM, etc. originated from Xerox PARC labs... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIMP_(computing)

There was an article over at Tom's the other day about how the new Win 12 will be 'for' 'AI capable' PCs. I have no idea what that means. My first impression was that you'll be able to talk to your mouse like it's a microphone, tell your PC to make you some transparent aluminum, and 3D printer will do the deed.

But after considering it, I said, "No. That's probably not it." Instead I'm guessing there will be a monetary angle around it. You'll ask Desktop Clippy something about anything, and he'll tell you that the answer is to be found in a new pay as you go subscription plan from MS. The Windows 24/7/365 Cradle to Grave, Own Nothing and Be Happy plan.

 

[Berwhale]

There was an article over at Tom's the other day about how the new Win 12 will be 'for' 'AI capable' PCs. I have no idea what that means. My first impression was that you'll be able to talk to your mouse like it's a microphone, tell your PC to make you some transparent aluminum, and 3D printer will do the deed.

But after considering it, I said, "No. That's probably not it." Instead I'm guessing there will be a monetary angle around it. You'll ask Desktop Clippy something about anything, and he'll tell you that the answer is to be found in a new pay as you go subscription plan from MS. The Windows 24/7/365 Cradle to Grave, Own Nothing and Be Happy plan.

You can read billg's view on how this will play out here: https://www.gatesnotes.com/AI-agents

And then watch the demo of ai pin here: https://hu.ma.ne/aipin

 

[Axo1989]

I seam to remember that gates was the project manager for Apple when they developed their gui.
Jobs accused gates of stealing IP to develop Windows 1.0. So they are all related?

No, Microsoft worked on GUI-based software for Mac, and announced Windows and Word in November 1983 per agreement with Apple (and—only incidentally—just before the actual Macintosh was announced, because the latter was delayed). Gates worked with Apple, but not as an employee or project manager. I don't know how these myths get started, do people never check?

The "stealing" lawsuit related specifically to that delay btw, Microsoft was contracted to announce/release after Macintosh, but the legal agreement specified a Macintosh release date that Apple didn't meet, so Gates jumped in. The GUI came from Xerox PARC of course, and Apple's arrangement with PARC employees involved provision of Apple shares in return for using the GUI, a longer story.

Edit: Windows v1 GUI was pretty ordinary (you could say rushed) and Apple did a much better job with original Macintosh OS, but Microsoft succeeded by offering Windows 95, which cemented their position as the most popular desktop OS.

 

[Moonbase]

No, Microsoft worked on GUI-based software for Mac, and announced Windows and Word in November 1983 per agreement with Apple (and—only incidentally—just before the actual Macintosh was announced, because the latter was delayed). Gates worked with Apple, but not as an employee or project manager. I don't know how these myths get started, do people never check?

The "stealing" lawsuit related specifically to that delay btw, Microsoft was contracted to announce/release after Macintosh, but the legal agreement specified a Macintosh release date that Apple didn't meet, so Gates jumped in. The GUI came from Xerox PARC of course, and Apple's arrangement with PARC employees involved provision of Apple shares in return for using the GUI, a longer story.

Edit: Windows v1 GUI was pretty ordinary (you could say rushed) and Apple did a much better job with original Macintosh OS, but Microsoft succeeded by offering Windows 95, which cemented their position as the most popular desktop OS.

The seams to match my memory’s

Steve Jobs vs. Bill Gates: A history of their love-hate relationship

Microsoft's Bill Gates and Apple's Steve Jobs had periods of civility. Other times, they were at each other's throats.

www.businessinsider.com

Mac in 83 and windows in 85, as you say windows 1.0 didn’t really work.

 

[DLS79]

Mac - I liked the interface, although as an advanced user many things irritated me.

Understatement!

 

[Multicore]

Which OS do you prefer?

Windows 11 Pro on the desk, MacOS Ventura on the laptop, Debain Linux on 7 servers or more if you count VMs.

I currently prefer Windows over MacOS for GUI apps. I never liked Linux or any unixish OS for GUI.

In the past there were times I preferred MacOS over Windows. It was WSL that brought Windows back into contention for me and right in time too when running hackintoshes was becoming difficult.

 

[Multicore]

For those who use a Mac, what mouse do you use?

I use only the swishpad that's built into the laptop. I don't like it very much. It seems to take between 1 and 7 touches for the OS to register a click event. It's worse than touch screens. I chuckle to remember when Jobs scolded iPhone customers for holding their phone wrong and making its badly designed antennas fail. I tell myself I must be touching the swishpad wrong and I should learn the proper technique. Maybe licking my finger would help.

 

[Multicore]

Doesn’t a Mac have Unix? It’s not hard to get to the Unix system.

Yes and no. It's a long story. Originally OS X had a FreeBSD-like subsystem that was quite nice if, like me, you were used to that kind of thing. And for many years that's the main reason I used OS X and I went to the trouble of running Hackintoshes.

But Apple never had any commercial interest in that subsystem as a product feature for users. So over the years it became more weirdly Apple-specific. For example lauchd, great in some ways, horrible in others, 100% Apple-weird.

I had already switched from FreeBSD to Linux on the servers when I decided I gotta stop running Hackintoshes for my workstation. MacOS was becoming harder to run on standard PC hardware and Apple were going to move off Intel. I tried a couple of Linux GUIs at that time but they still sucked in a constellation of ways. Windows started shipping a Linux compatibility subsystem and then added a Linux kernel to Windows so I switched back.

Remember the "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" TV ads? I met the "I'm a PC" guy once. Nerd.

 

[DLS79]

MacOS was becoming harder to run on standard PC hardware and Apple were going to move off Intel.

That's because they want to force their hardware on you.

 

[mhardy6647]

I do still miss CP/M.
... and MS-DOS still kinda feels like home.

 

[Axo1989]

Yes and no. It's a long story. Originally OS X had a FreeBSD-like subsystem that was quite nice if, like me, you were used to that kind of thing. And for many years that's the main reason I used OS X and I went to the trouble of running Hackintoshes.

But Apple never had any commercial interest in that subsystem as a product feature for users. So over the years it became more weirdly Apple-specific. For example lauchd, great in some ways, horrible in others, 100% Apple-weird.

I had already switched from FreeBSD to Linux on the servers when I decided I gotta stop running Hackintoshes for my workstation. MacOS was becoming harder to run on standard PC hardware and Apple were going to move off Intel. I tried a couple of Linux GUIs at that time but they still sucked in a constellation of ways. Windows started shipping a Linux compatibility subsystem and then added a Linux kernel to Windows so I switched back.

Remember the "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" TV ads? I met the "I'm a PC" guy once. Nerd.

There you go, very cool to meet him. Apparently, that PC guy (John Hodgeman) was a Mac user, and the Mac guy (Justin Long) was a PC user in real life, iirc.

 

[Axo1989]

That's because they want to force their hardware on you.

FFS, there's no real reason why Apple should or would make their current line of ARM-based hardware specifically run X86 software. It would be a rare use case to exclusively run say Windows (non-ARM versions) on Mac, and not run the native OS. They've also been very good at emulation during CPU architecture transitions (see Rosetta). Of course I run Windows on Mac in a VM, but not exclusively. If I didn't want to run macOS I would be unlikely to buy a Mac (even though the hardware is pretty nice in most cases).

 

[Axo1989]

I use only the swishpad that's built into the laptop. I don't like it very much. It seems to take between 1 and 7 touches for the OS to register a click event. It's worse than touch screens. I chuckle to remember when Jobs scolded iPhone customers for holding their phone wrong and making its badly designed antennas fail. I tell myself I must be touching the swishpad wrong and I should learn the proper technique. Maybe licking my finger would help.

Interesting—seven touches?—have you double-checked to see if you are human?

 

[DLS79]

FFS, there's no real reason why Apple should or would make their current line of ARM-based hardware specifically run X86 software. It would be a rare use case to exclusively run say Windows (non-ARM versions) on Mac, and not run the native OS. They've also been very good at emulation during CPU architecture transitions (see Rosetta). Of course I run Windows on Mac in a VM, but not exclusively. If I didn't want to run macOS I would be unlikely to buy a Mac (even though the hardware is pretty nice in most cases).

I'm not talking about current hardware!