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Is COVID strategy moving towards herd-immunity?!

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Racheski

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Are you asking for empirical studies of the mathematical model as to extinction?

Any lumped parameter model will just give a more detailed view of mitigation, and/or spread.

No, I'm asking for any scientific precedent, whether it be from an article, textbook, blog, whatever, that the following is a valid methodology:
  1. Pick 2 similar countries (region, GDP, population).
  2. Pick a disease (disease A) where there has been a focused effort towards mitigation, e.g. COVID-19, and pick another disease (Disease B) that targets similar organ systems, e.g. respiratory, where both diseases exist in both countries.
  3. Determine the R0 and Re for Disease A & B in both countries, and divide R0 by Re to calculate a "mitigation factor."
  4. If the mitigation factor is the same for Disease A & B, then the mitigation efforts for Disease A will have the same effect on Disease B.
  5. Now look at the actual incidence rates of Diseases A & B in both countries over the same period of time during the mitigation efforts. If the change in incidence rates are different between both countries, then the mitigation efforts cannot explain these differences, i.e. Sweden's public health policies do not explain the increased COVID-19 cases compared to Finland, so we should look at other reasons such as immigration, quality of elderly care, timing of these mitigation efforts, etc...
I'm not questioning the validity of the basic or effective reproduction number - I'm questioning the validity of applying them in the above manner because there are numerous fallacies, some of which have been pointed out. Instead of going through all the fallacies which won't really benefit anyone, I'm simply asking for examples that apply the same or similar methodology as above. The basic reproduction number has been studied by epidemiologists for decades - it is not some novel concept that emerged since COVID-19 began. So either there are previous studies that we can look at to support this method, or the poster just made it up and therefore should be ignored.
 

Racheski

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I am not sure what you are asking for, but there is a paper being written up regarding the impact of covid-19 migitations on invasive pneumococcal disease in countries of Europe. Naturally, I can't disclose any information of this at this point so you have to wait until it is published. Reduction of both influenzae and pneumococcal disease during the covid-19 pandemic has been published however.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7428708/
https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(20)30554-5/pdf
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.01.20119057v1
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1628

Yes, all these papers show a corresponding decrease in the incidence of pneumococcal disease during COVID19 for Singapore, Hong Kong, and Britain, likely due to the COVID19 response measures. They have nothing to do with R0 and Re.
 

SKBubba

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I came for the audio science, I stayed for the SARS-CoV-2 science.
 

North_Sky

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Health and Public Schools ...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/...o-good-options-for-reopening-during-covid-19/

All of us we know how much more healthier it is to go to school for our children, no doubt. It is with direct human interaction that we go through life on solider grounds, that we learn more...instead of staying @ home in front of a computer with a screen or text messaging on Twitter or Instagram...no doubt.

Kids are not concerned, it's the teachers and parents and grandparents who are...us all grown ups.

One teacher's friend once told me that classical music is good for kids; I don't doubt that for a second. Schools are the places where kids develop their skills and their entry to the adult world equipped with the proper baggage to make it in life. Better be educated than not. Better have a good education and a good job and be rich than a poor education with a miserable job and be poor. ...No doubt.

Do we have members here who are teachers and have some insight they would like to share; because I am highly interested on what they have to say. That's important.
And, do we have members here who have kids who are about to go back to school in the next few days or so?
Plus, do we have members here who have grandchildren who are about to go back to school this Fall?
 
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North_Sky

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I came for the audio science, I stayed for the SARS-CoV-2 science.

Without health there's no clean music.
Without life there's only music from the heavens.
Health science and audio science they go hand-in-hand.
 
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Harmonie

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@North_Sky "Kids are not concerned, "

Well they show now that even "elder" kids are concerned.
Out of 500 they tested 6 positive case in Alsace area (if my memory is correct). Small proportion, true.

As it was indicated elsewhere among some options, I think that younger are getting infected but have a better metabolism.
Elders cases are decreasing too - but maybe these care now more about their health and take correct measures.
 

onofno

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-Capture d’écran 2020-08-24 à 17.39.30.png


Monday update, 1 person died from Covid-19 in France last night.
Tweeter

My grandchildren are going back to school on Tuesday 1 September in Toulouse, France.
 
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onofno

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@ North_Sky

Listen to what is saying Professor Toussaint (in French) August 19 about Covid_19

Vidéo

"When the state is the toy of the holders of capital, the population is nothing but cattle."
 
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Vasr

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and, btw, the thing that disturbs me the most in this pandemic era is that if you are a kid caught at an "illegal" party, you could be fined half the yearly wage of your working-class dad whereas, if you are a trade commissioner going to a golf event and party, a "profound apology" is all you need (or maybe a press conference if you are an adviser with poor eyesight). Nauseating...

I hear you.

But the cynic in me says a differential justice system has been part of life for ever based on wealth, status, color of collar/skin, nature of crime independent of its consequences, etc., and is institutionally ingrained.

Covid-19 being non-discriminatory and reaching every aspect of life/work has brought these types of inequalities more into focus even for those that were previously insulated from it.

Some of the movements coincidental with this pandemic aren't just coincidental. At the minimum, it has allowed people some time away from the busy schedules to ponder beyond their daily grind. The sociological implications of the pandemic (and some of them for the good) can be far more deeper than people may be thinking of right now.
 

onofno

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PierreV said:
and, btw, the thing that disturbs me the most in this pandemic era is that if you are a kid caught at an "illegal" party, you could be fined half the yearly wage of your working-class dad whereas, if you are a trade commissioner going to a golf event and party, a "profound apology" is all you need (or maybe a press conference if you are an adviser with poor eyesight). Nauseating...


"Depending on whether you are powerful or miserable, court judgments will make you white or black..." Jean de la Fontaine (year 1678)
 

Thomas_A

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Yes, all these papers show a corresponding decrease in the incidence of pneumococcal disease during COVID19 for Singapore, Hong Kong, and Britain, likely due to the COVID19 response measures. They have nothing to do with R0 and Re.

No they do not explicit measure R0 but can you infer from those studies that R0 of invasive pneumococcal disease is affected by human behaviour due to covid-19 mitigations?
 

CentreFrequency

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So much for the herd immunity experiment to save the economy in Sweden

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-sweden-gdp-falls-8pc-in-q2-worse-nordic-neighbors-2020-8

Norway also just declared its Q2 GDP fall as 6.3% (ex-oil)

Higher deaths and higher GDP fall than all of its neighbors. Of course, one can claim a contrafactual that it would have been worse with a lock-down.

That's one way to pick and choose. Here's another:
  • Sweden was down by 8.6%
  • Germany was down by 10.1%
  • Spain was down by 18.5%
  • Italy was down by 12.4%
  • France was down by 13.8%
  • Portugal was down by 14.1%
  • EU as a whole was down by 11.9%
  • Euro zone was down by 12.1%
 

Vasr

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That's one way to pick and choose. Here's another:
  • Sweden was down by 8.6%
  • Germany was down by 10.1%
  • Spain was down by 18.5%
  • Italy was down by 12.4%
  • France was down by 13.8%
  • Portugal was down by 14.1%
  • EU as a whole was down by 11.9%
  • Euro zone was down by 12.1%
Welcome to AudioScienceReview as a poster.

There is no picking and choosing. It is most valid to compare countries geographically, culturally and politically close to control variables as much as possible - genetics, demographics, travel, health care system, diet, food sources, population mix, similar economies, exports/imports, etc., etc. So you can isolate the parameters that vary and corelate with results. That is why you find comparisons of Southern European countries, Scandinavian countries, etc as separate groups.

It is called using a control group in science/sociological experiments and the control group is selected to minimize variables between the test group and the control group.
 

North_Sky

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On an extended soundstage ...

USA ...
https://www.bea.gov/news/2020/gross...arter-2020-advance-estimate-and-annual-update

China ...
https://www.365news.com/2020/08/chinas-economy-is-bouncing-back-and-gaining-ground-on-the-u-s/
" As much of the world struggles to contain the coronavirus, China’s recovery is gaining momentum, positioning it to further close its gap with the U.S. economy.

Across China, restaurants and gyms are busy again. Subway cars and airport departure lounges are packed. Children are preparing to return to classrooms with few of the restrictions U.S. officials say will be hallmarks of post-coronavirus life. In some schools, children are being asked to bring masks—but they don’t have to wear them. ... "
 
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Willem

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Netherlands 8.5% decline in Q2 with an 'intelligent' i.e. limited and targeted lockdown. It is important to realize, however, that our foreign trade component is huge (two thirds? I don't have time now to look up the figures), and hence our numbers are largely dependent on demand from elsewhere. Something similar probably applies to the Scandinavian countries, though perhaps not to the same extent.
 
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CentreFrequency

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I think we are going to have to accept that deaths will happen, and sadly far too many. Think of how risky it has been since our species evolved, life has always been a tenuous thing at best. To suddenly think that we can remove the risk of death is at best naive. The only viable option moving forward, in my opinion, is to protect the vulnerable as opposed to attempting to control the global population for a sustained period of time which is just a ludicrous idea and clearly impossible in any meaningful way. Yes while we were learning about this pathogen there was a need to do what we believed would flatten the curve; now while our knowledge has significant gaps, it is still reasonable to suggest that the vast majority of at risks groups are well identified and transitively steps could be taken to protect them.

Trying to control billions in any meaningful way for an indefinite period of time will fail, of that there is no doubt so clearly a new approach is needed. We have accepted the risks of death and disease from so many human activities such as food additives and water tables absolutely polluted with an unfathomable chemical stew that are not theorized to cause cancer, but confirmed to cause cancer (as one example of accepted risk) so why is the risks of death from covid suddenly so unacceptable? Don't get me wrong, I support any and all reasonable efforts to mitigate and control the spread, but reasonable also must be interpreted as realistic and viable over the long-term. This virus is now endemic and it will never go away. Vaccines are rather variable in their effectiveness so waiting for that silver bullet is running the risk of setting ourselves up for failure. Again, in my opinion.

I personally believe that given the extreme and hard to anticipate unintended consequences of suddenly changing the global economic reality overnight; an economic reality that has evolved in concert with the species if you think about it, is just so risky. And I say that as somebody who believes that capitalism requires reasonable and realistic limits so I am not at all all about the economy first; however, clearly we now live in a global reality where capitalism is the central thread that maintains so many lives, perhaps in the end the vast majority of lives. If we accept that as a reasonable interpretation of the state of our species, it should be obvious that we cannot suddenly simply do away with our current lived reality to avoid the risk of death. I cannot help but think that what we are experiencing is simply the failure of creativity.

I also believe that if moving forward we attempted to protect the vulnerable the best way that science suggests while also maintaining some of the more sustainable aspects of social distancing (e.g. face masks in crowds, limiting numbers in stores) it gives us a chance to maintain realistic controls that can be sustained. Surely our species can come up with better approaches than the blunt tool of grossly arresting social interaction. We are social animals and we need to socialize. I like to think that if we looked at the problem more creatively we could find ways to protect the vulnerable while also respecting the fact that people need to live social and economic lives. Eventually we all know that we are going to allow in-person sporting and other cultural events, you can count on that, so what are we going to do given that is going to happen? How are we creatively going to pool our social efforts to return to life as a social animal while doing the best that we can to mitigate the risk to the vulnerable?

It isn't that I don't think that current efforts can be effective and even done better, I just do not for a moment think they are sustainable and if that is the case it actually suggests that we are wasting valuable resources now. So returning from my tirade to the thread topic, even if imperfect, to whatever extent herd immunity can mitigate risk, I think we need to be encouraging controlled herd immunity building efforts. Absolutely no matter what we do, people will die so a zero risk ethos is just silly and should never be allowed to be discussed at any level of society. Life is not a zero risk proposition ever, and it never has been at any point in history. So how much risk is acceptable? That seems to be the very tough question nobody wants to tackle, but one that needs to be asked and discussed frankly at all levels of society.

I cannot help but believe if we took even half of the money currently being spent trying to control as much social interaction as possible, instead focused on: protecting the vulnerable; maintaining the best aspects of social distancing; developing vaccines and allowing herd immunity to do whatever it is that it can do, I think such an approach is far better than believing that long-term social lockdowns are a reasonable response. I suspect that this is going to be controversial, but I will suggest that there is no way we can weather another lockdown type of social response for the subsequent waves that are guaranteed to come (it is the magnitude of these waves that are unknown).

So what is plan B going to look like? Again, returning to the thread topic I personally believe that as with many other pathogens our species co-exists with, herd immunity, imperfect as it is, will be one of the most effective and sustainable responses. How do we support herd immunity efforts while protecting the vulnerable?

Edit: For the mods, I understand how difficult your job can be and is, and as such I tried to make sure that my positions and language used were not framed in a political or divisive way. I hope that I achieved that goal.


@A Surfer, you plagiarized my thoughts!

Other things to consider:

Netherlands 8.5% decline in Q2 with an 'intelligent' i.e. limited and targeted lockdown.

What follows isn't a direct response to your post, but something that the word "lockdown" made me think of. I thought this was an interesting piece of reading from last October:

https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/329438/9789241516839-eng.pdf?ua=1

That's from a committee that advised the World Health Organization on non-pharmaceutical interventions in the event(s) of epidemic or pandemic. Of the interventions mentioned, lockdown was not among them. When asked why lockdown was excluded (even in the worst-case scenario), one of the people in the committee (Svenn-Erik Mamelund of Oslo Metropolitan University) responded: “We never suggested lockdown because we knew it would be so harmful socially and economically for all countries. And I never thought the rest of the world would follow China’s lead.”

@A Surfer's post (quoted above) is a thoughtful read, whether you agree with it or not. ( I do.)
 

Willem

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The Dutch approach was an attempt to reduce social interaction where necessary, but not where it could still be allowed. Of course, this depended on scientific information on how the virus spread or not, and that information was quite incomplete in the earlier stages. Inevitably, therefore, some decisions were suboptimal, but quite a lot of research was initiated to find out more. I think the biggest mistake was that the early spread of the epidemic in the south of the country was recognized too late - carnival should have been banned, and in effect that was what some people said at the time (including me). Unfortunately local catholic politicians did not want to do this. By the time it was recognized that we had a problem, the epidemic had already spun out of control in the south. Where we live in the north there were virtually no infections, and this has continued until very recently. Only now with people coming back from holidays and young people ignoring social distancing rules the number of infections is rising here as well.
So for me the lesson is that acting early is crucial, and that extreme lockdowns are by no means necessary if you have acted early enough. Basic social distancing and a few targeted restrictions may well go a long way. I must admit that for that reason I am increasingly concerned when I see that people are no longer willing to accept social distancing. Is it really that hard to keep your distance, when that prevents a nasty surge and perhaps an economically devastating lockdown?
 
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