+/- 4 dB with no EQ, that sounds amazing, care to start a thread about your system?
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Insanely Expensive Audio
- Thread starter Ron Texas
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+/- 4 dB with no EQ, that sounds amazing, care to start a thread about your system?
Would a head-turner type fit?
A few years ago there was a group of German dentists who ended up as significant shipowners as they swallowed the idea that KG funding of ships was a surefire win even if nobody wanted the ships. So it is certainly true that high levels of education and professional expertise isn't a guarantee of good judgement.
svart-hvitt
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Very concentrated and narrow focus on personal gain. Being human can end up being fudged, ignored or missing.
It makes it seem normal if one surrounds oneself with like thinkers.
etc6849
Active Member
Someday I will post a thread. I got some PM's with questions, so I'm just going to answer them here, so everyone can see them. Sorry for thread crapping in advance 
1. Why not MiniDSP:
The Xilica XD 4080 gives me only a very faint hiss at the listening position. I am not sure the miniDSP 4x10HD has as low of a noise floor as I read posts about it having hiss with horns, and I couldn't tell if it does FIR filters for tri-amping or not (I don't think it does). I know it says it does FIR for room correction, but this is not what I needed. Picking a well known pro audio brand that has huge value for the money made sense. The Xilica XD4080 also lets you configure it over your network, which is really handy. Yes there are more features and settings, but to me this adds versatility.
2. Need to match passive XO's:
All I did is do time alignment and set FIR filters (picked crossover points based on THD and off speaker spec sheet) with the mic at the sweet spot. You don't have to have a network analyzer or anything to measure the electrical characteristics of the passive crossover, although this might be fun it is a waste of time. I get that cabinets have resonating frequencies, but the benefits of tri-amping and using FIR filters far out weigh any passive crossover no matter the cost.
3. What speakers:
This doesn't really matter as much. Any speaker will sound many times better if you set things up like mine. What you should care about is drivers that can operate at very low distortion. My speakers are Klipsch Palladium P-39f's (x4) and a Klipsch Palladium P-27C (x1). I get distortion levels at 90dB that are better than the world's best headphones, and bass that very few have ever experienced. I need to remeasure as I replaced one of my sub drivers and expect distortion to be even lower now, but below are some pics.
4. Why no thread:
Most people I used to try to help on AVS Forum and other sites want high quality audio, but only want to buy an AVR, etc... The audience for people willing to build a setup like mine is very very small, and a system like this really needs to be experienced. It is an end all setup and will sound better than anything you've ever heard at any price, but me just saying that in a thread on most sites is just going to attract a bunch of skeptics.
Just to give you an idea, on other sites I've been told: all amps sound the same, an AVR is just as good, value brands like Emotiva (although really decent for the price) are as good as the best amps available, you can't possibly hear a 30dB improvement you are getting in noise floor with AHB2 amps (the hell I can't), etc... Let alone the other side of the spectrum of audiophiles telling me: digital is inferior, specs and measurements aren't as important as how something sounds (like the room won't define 60% of what you are hearing), science is magic and fidelity can't possibly be objectively defined or measured, I need $20k class A monoblocks to get good sound, etc...
BUT most ( ) people here are much smarter than what I've ran into on other forums, so someday I will post a thread. Further, just the measurements to set this up take many hours to do and it is not simple unless someone does a lot of independent study of REW's manual, has a technical background, has the necessary tools, has lots of free time and of course has disposable income (i.e. no kids or other hobbies ). For me it took many iterations and lots of learning each time, but I have a degree in electrical engineering so I already had a basic understanding of technical concepts.
I think it would easily take a full week if not two of me training someone before they could replicate what I have done (assuming they haven't studied room acoustics, but are knowledgeable and able to learn technical topics quickly). I don't think a thread is going to achieve that without a lot of technical explanation and documentation, but it seems there are a lot of smart and interesting people on this forum, so I am not against it.
Basic Signal path:
PC audio out via RME multiple channel AES card, AES out->AES in Xilica XD4080's, analog out->Benchmark AHB2 amps (one channel to each L,M and H driver, amps driving the three woofers are in mono).
With Dirac enabled on my PC:
@Jorj
1. Why not MiniDSP:
The Xilica XD 4080 gives me only a very faint hiss at the listening position. I am not sure the miniDSP 4x10HD has as low of a noise floor as I read posts about it having hiss with horns, and I couldn't tell if it does FIR filters for tri-amping or not (I don't think it does). I know it says it does FIR for room correction, but this is not what I needed. Picking a well known pro audio brand that has huge value for the money made sense. The Xilica XD4080 also lets you configure it over your network, which is really handy. Yes there are more features and settings, but to me this adds versatility.
2. Need to match passive XO's:
All I did is do time alignment and set FIR filters (picked crossover points based on THD and off speaker spec sheet) with the mic at the sweet spot. You don't have to have a network analyzer or anything to measure the electrical characteristics of the passive crossover, although this might be fun it is a waste of time. I get that cabinets have resonating frequencies, but the benefits of tri-amping and using FIR filters far out weigh any passive crossover no matter the cost.
3. What speakers:
This doesn't really matter as much. Any speaker will sound many times better if you set things up like mine. What you should care about is drivers that can operate at very low distortion. My speakers are Klipsch Palladium P-39f's (x4) and a Klipsch Palladium P-27C (x1). I get distortion levels at 90dB that are better than the world's best headphones, and bass that very few have ever experienced. I need to remeasure as I replaced one of my sub drivers and expect distortion to be even lower now, but below are some pics.
4. Why no thread:
Most people I used to try to help on AVS Forum and other sites want high quality audio, but only want to buy an AVR, etc... The audience for people willing to build a setup like mine is very very small, and a system like this really needs to be experienced. It is an end all setup and will sound better than anything you've ever heard at any price, but me just saying that in a thread on most sites is just going to attract a bunch of skeptics.
Just to give you an idea, on other sites I've been told: all amps sound the same, an AVR is just as good, value brands like Emotiva (although really decent for the price) are as good as the best amps available, you can't possibly hear a 30dB improvement you are getting in noise floor with AHB2 amps (the hell I can't), etc... Let alone the other side of the spectrum of audiophiles telling me: digital is inferior, specs and measurements aren't as important as how something sounds (like the room won't define 60% of what you are hearing), science is magic and fidelity can't possibly be objectively defined or measured, I need $20k class A monoblocks to get good sound, etc...
BUT most (
) people here are much smarter than what I've ran into on other forums, so someday I will post a thread. Further, just the measurements to set this up take many hours to do and it is not simple unless someone does a lot of independent study of REW's manual, has a technical background, has the necessary tools, has lots of free time and of course has disposable income (i.e. no kids or other hobbies ). For me it took many iterations and lots of learning each time, but I have a degree in electrical engineering so I already had a basic understanding of technical concepts.I think it would easily take a full week if not two of me training someone before they could replicate what I have done (assuming they haven't studied room acoustics, but are knowledgeable and able to learn technical topics quickly). I don't think a thread is going to achieve that without a lot of technical explanation and documentation, but it seems there are a lot of smart and interesting people on this forum, so I am not against it.
Basic Signal path:
PC audio out via RME multiple channel AES card, AES out->AES in Xilica XD4080's, analog out->Benchmark AHB2 amps (one channel to each L,M and H driver, amps driving the three woofers are in mono).
With Dirac enabled on my PC:
@Jorj
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watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Given this point, I'm curious why you didn't use active speakers with DSP crossovers already built?
Lots of pro monitors from JBL, Dynaudio, Genelec, etc already active/FIR setups
etc6849
Active Member
Nothing wrong at all with doing that. For me I did things in phases, and initially tried a traditional setup with an Emotiva XMC-1 and Emotiva XPR amps first, so I already had the speakers and two of the subs. It's also not like they are easy to ship and sell...
I don't doubt professional speakers like you are talking about can be very very good (better than something at an audiophile shop or Best Buy). I am sure I have 120dB of dynamic range (not going to test that though), but I think Myer Sound and JBL have active speakers that can do that too.
One thing to see is how crossing to subs with active monitors will work. I use a low order Bessel filter for this as I wanted to minimize phase shift and like to have three woofers and 5 subs making sound together (to further reduce room modal effects by using more drivers for LF). You will also have extra A/D and D/A conversions if you add a speaker processor and put an active monitor on the analog outputs. However, there is for sure ways to do this in software on your PC, but at the end of the day, I don't see how you get around the extra A/D and D/A conversions unless the monitors have digital inputs.
I don't doubt professional speakers like you are talking about can be very very good (better than something at an audiophile shop or Best Buy). I am sure I have 120dB of dynamic range (not going to test that though), but I think Myer Sound and JBL have active speakers that can do that too.
One thing to see is how crossing to subs with active monitors will work. I use a low order Bessel filter for this as I wanted to minimize phase shift and like to have three woofers and 5 subs making sound together (to further reduce room modal effects by using more drivers for LF). You will also have extra A/D and D/A conversions if you add a speaker processor and put an active monitor on the analog outputs. However, there is for sure ways to do this in software on your PC, but at the end of the day, I don't see how you get around the extra A/D and D/A conversions unless the monitors have digital inputs.
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
JBL 7p series, some Genelec have digital inputs.
I agree with that, since the transducers generally measure worse than electronics
What you should care about is drivers that can operate at very low distortion.
So I looked. My 'stats with 12" sealed at 90+ish dB at the listening position (both speakers) with AcourateDRC and minidsp OpenDRC-DI
You have 2nd and 4th harmonics almost tracking each other, that's octaves, so less noticeable. Your 3rd is commendably low.
Room phase anomaly at 48Hz on mine.
Thank you very much @etc6849 I will certainly digest everything you've written. I think it's even more impressive you managed to do it in a fairly small room.
Yes as you say you are preaching to the choir here
I once mentioned on another forum how many subwoofers I planned to use and some people replied disparagingly that I must be a "basshead", which is about as far from the truth as possible, I simply want neutral sound.
I am going down a similar path with a purely dedicated room for stereo (doing another for HT because I'm a nut!) all DSP, multi sub, etc. Doing the crossovers with DSP too though.
Yes as you say you are preaching to the choir here
I once mentioned on another forum how many subwoofers I planned to use and some people replied disparagingly that I must be a "basshead", which is about as far from the truth as possible, I simply want neutral sound.
I am going down a similar path with a purely dedicated room for stereo (doing another for HT because I'm a nut!) all DSP, multi sub, etc. Doing the crossovers with DSP too though.
etc6849
Active Member
Do you have some pics/thread of your setup? These measurements look really nice Ray. Please feel free to drop me a PM if you are driving through SC, and I'll do the same when I'm near Tampa (assuming that's ok). I can tell from the plots you have spent a considerable amount of time and effort on your system, and strive for perfection.
Just add some more subs? I had a similar room null, but fixed it with my 5th sub. Worth every penny as I'm likely obsessive compulsive. I also found elevating my subs as shown helped my waterfall plot.
I also had to use four electrical circuits to get full bass performance. I can't remember if these measurements were before I did that or not. I have a new to me Benchmark ADC-1 to do some measuring with.
Just add some more subs? I had a similar room null, but fixed it with my 5th sub. Worth every penny as I'm likely obsessive compulsive. I also found elevating my subs as shown helped my waterfall plot.
I also had to use four electrical circuits to get full bass performance. I can't remember if these measurements were before I did that or not. I have a new to me Benchmark ADC-1 to do some measuring with.
D
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OP
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Looks like something from a mad scientist's lab.
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I thought it was an MBL speaker at first glance.
AnalogSteph
Major Contributor
Then your levels probably need some work. Dynamic range of these units is given as 115 dB unweighted - that should be good enough for no appreciable hiss.
How have you set up gain on the AHB2s? Without having looked up sensitivity specs for your drivers, I'd try medium gain on the low and mid freqs and low gain for the tweeter. Tweeters tend to be sensitive buggers.
Alternatively, look up what the tweeter series resistor is in ther original passive XO and use this or a slightly smaller value. Should theoretically benefit distortion, too. Then you can increase gain to medium again.
That may be a bit of a stretch. I'm seeing a tad below -60 dB mid-band there. While that's a great result for speakers, it's about the same as what InnerFidelity measurements show for e.g. Sennheiser HD600 + HD650, and I suspect those are noise-limited, as I remember seeing values in the order of -80 dB before. This seems more like it... about -70 mid-band for the HD650. Not much worse at 100 dB either.
Current driving seems like something you may want to try, especially for the midrange. (Ideally what you want is an amplifier that is voltage drive around the driver's fundamental resonance and transitions to current drive above that. A pure current drive amp has, by definition, no damping.) It seems to benefit distortion particularly much on drivers that have non-conductive voice coil formers (e.g. Kapton rather than Al). Would be a shame about the nice Benchmark amps, of course, but they're textbook voltage drive.
etc6849
Active Member
Definitely, I could add some padding and get rid of the faint mid-range hiss. It is less loudness than what a light bulb makes in my room and far less than quiet ventilation. I can't think of any way to describe it except for very very faint hard to hear hiss, as in I have to try to hear it, but...
Buried in the manual for my main speakers it states for the midrange:
The driver sensitivity of 106 dB allows minimal excursion at normal playback volume.
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/ahb2-driving-pmc-mb2s-studio-monitors
States: "the AHB2 has an output noise voltage of 9.8 uV rms when running in mono mode. This is -109 dB relative to 2.83 V rms (20*Log(0.0000098/2.83)." This shows that the amplifier noise is actually reproduced at - 3 dB SPL (106 dB - 109 dB = - 3 dB) for my midrange horn.
From this, I think changing to any other amp is a waste (unless I can sell the AHB2's and rebuy a much cheaper amp that is just as good performance wise). The hiss has to be from the Xilica XD4080, but it is so low and very hard for me to hear (plus I turned the XD4080 off to verify ). I also turned the midrange down to -40dB for one channel, and still the same very very faint hiss is there. I will say that I tried an Ashly active XO, and the Xilica has much much lower hiss. I just think my horns are very sensitive.
As you noted, and verified from the pic below, raising midrange level on the Xilica (after adding some padding) seems like a great idea to try. Plenty of extra headroom on my mid band channels in the Xilica.
I re-did measurements with some used gear I bought off ebay (Benchmark ADC1 and MPA1, Earthwork M30 mic). I also realized after my post the measurements were very old, and before adding 3 more electrical circuits and replacing one of the sub drivers! When I added the circuits, I had to rework levels due to the extra sub output. I lost that REW file as I formatted to Windows 10 LTSB, so all I have are measurements from last year and yesterday.
Here are the measurements for with no EQ used. I'm too lazy to update all the images right now, so just download the newest mdat file and use Room EQ Wizard to view it.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1J0a4OV_WGLVUxPR2tHSXF4UUE
As for HD650's versus my setup: I see my setup has a THD of .320% at 30 Hz and 90dB (from the legend that changes as I move the cursor in Room EQ Wizard); the HD650 would be 2.3% (both right near 90dB too). If you read distortion using the y axis, it is in dB SPL.
I was definitely embellishing and exaggerating a little as I think the best headphones will have a less mid band distortion (although higher low band distortion), but thanks for the complements, I will for sure take them You have a point about mid-band distortion for sure...
But for bass, perhaps the Audeze LCD-4's could compete with my setup at high volumes. I have some Sennheiser HD800's I bought and really like them. They are what got me to tri-amp as they sounded a little more detailed than my main setup, but not so much anymore with my current theater setup. I feel I am not missing anything now, and the bass is very realistic to say the least
Buried in the manual for my main speakers it states for the midrange:
The driver sensitivity of 106 dB allows minimal excursion at normal playback volume.
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/ahb2-driving-pmc-mb2s-studio-monitors
States: "the AHB2 has an output noise voltage of 9.8 uV rms when running in mono mode. This is -109 dB relative to 2.83 V rms (20*Log(0.0000098/2.83)." This shows that the amplifier noise is actually reproduced at - 3 dB SPL (106 dB - 109 dB = - 3 dB) for my midrange horn.
From this, I think changing to any other amp is a waste (unless I can sell the AHB2's and rebuy a much cheaper amp that is just as good performance wise). The hiss has to be from the Xilica XD4080, but it is so low and very hard for me to hear (plus I turned the XD4080 off to verify
). I also turned the midrange down to -40dB for one channel, and still the same very very faint hiss is there. I will say that I tried an Ashly active XO, and the Xilica has much much lower hiss. I just think my horns are very sensitive.As you noted, and verified from the pic below, raising midrange level on the Xilica (after adding some padding) seems like a great idea to try. Plenty of extra headroom on my mid band channels in the Xilica.
I re-did measurements with some used gear I bought off ebay (Benchmark ADC1 and MPA1, Earthwork M30 mic). I also realized after my post the measurements were very old, and before adding 3 more electrical circuits and replacing one of the sub drivers! When I added the circuits, I had to rework levels due to the extra sub output. I lost that REW file as I formatted to Windows 10 LTSB, so all I have are measurements from last year and yesterday.
Here are the measurements for with no EQ used. I'm too lazy to update all the images right now, so just download the newest mdat file and use Room EQ Wizard to view it.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1J0a4OV_WGLVUxPR2tHSXF4UUE
As for HD650's versus my setup: I see my setup has a THD of .320% at 30 Hz and 90dB (from the legend that changes as I move the cursor in Room EQ Wizard); the HD650 would be 2.3% (both right near 90dB too). If you read distortion using the y axis, it is in dB SPL.
I was definitely embellishing and exaggerating a little as I think the best headphones will have a less mid band distortion (although higher low band distortion), but thanks for the complements, I will for sure take them
You have a point about mid-band distortion for sure...But for bass, perhaps the Audeze LCD-4's could compete with my setup at high volumes. I have some Sennheiser HD800's I bought and really like them. They are what got me to tri-amp as they sounded a little more detailed than my main setup, but not so much anymore with my current theater setup. I feel I am not missing anything now, and the bass is very realistic to say the least
Last edited:
OP
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Stereophile at Capital Audio Fest:
"The system: Von Schweikert Ultra 11 loudspeakers ($300,000/pair) and V12XS Shockwave subwoofers (two of 'em, at $11,500/each); two pairs of VAC Statement 450iQ monoblock power amplifiers ($120,000/pair) plus VAC's Statement phono stage ($80,000) and Statement line stage ($75,000); Esoteric Grandioso P1 transport ($38,000), Grandioso G1 master clock ($26,000), N-01 network audio player ($20,000), and two Grandioso D1 monoblock DACs ($19,000/each); Kronos Pro turntable with SCPS-1 power supply ($51,500); Air Tight Opus phono cartridge ($15,000); and $164,000 worth of Critical Mass Olympus V12 Luxury equipment supports."
That's comfortably over half a mil...
"The system: Von Schweikert Ultra 11 loudspeakers ($300,000/pair) and V12XS Shockwave subwoofers (two of 'em, at $11,500/each); two pairs of VAC Statement 450iQ monoblock power amplifiers ($120,000/pair) plus VAC's Statement phono stage ($80,000) and Statement line stage ($75,000); Esoteric Grandioso P1 transport ($38,000), Grandioso G1 master clock ($26,000), N-01 network audio player ($20,000), and two Grandioso D1 monoblock DACs ($19,000/each); Kronos Pro turntable with SCPS-1 power supply ($51,500); Air Tight Opus phono cartridge ($15,000); and $164,000 worth of Critical Mass Olympus V12 Luxury equipment supports."
That's comfortably over half a mil...
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Out of this whole insane list, this item is the one that really gets me.
Phono stages are pretty simple circuits and, yeah, low-noise is the big engineering trick for MCs, but it doesn't take $80k to get SOTA.
Don't mean to throw barbs at our vinyl lovers but it totally amazes me what they will spend on a even decent entry level system when superior sound can be had with a sub $100 DAC? Sorry but I just don't get it.