Human bottleneck

[YesChickenNuggets]

Watching Amir's new video on the PSaudio Snake Plant 3, he talks about how it's a waste of the engineer's time to design such a worthless object and a waste of earth's finite resources.

In this case the determinant for waste is the fact that SnakePlant3 completely fails to solve a problem that does not even exist and that Paul lies to his customers through marketing.

But why isn't this good sense philosophy applied to human limits. Is it not equally wasteful to chase very high sinad scores using ever more complex machinery, if people can't tell beyond a certain point. Is this not also solving a problem that doesn't exist, good engineering or otherwise.

Has Amir AB hearing tested the venerable ahb against an aiyima ? can Amir tell the difference at realistic listening volumes like 75db 1.5 meter?

Is there a scientific bar for Sinad, where we can comfortably say, bro, that's enough nads , going further is a waste of natural resources?

 

[AudioStudies]

This is apples and oranges. Making a product better than it has to be is a lot different than making a product to solve non-existent problems.

 

[DVDdoug]

Is there a scientific bar for Sinad, where we can comfortably say, bro, that's enough nads , going further is a waste of natural resources?

There are LOTS of variables, including the listener, the nature of the noise and distortion, background acoustic noise, etc.

It's not really practical or useful for Amir to A/B or ABX test everything. Also, he's a trained-skilled listener so he may be able to detect defects that a normal person (or the average audiophile) can't hear.

 

[YesChickenNuggets]

well that's fine, and it's still useful to know where the lines are as far as (trained) awareness.

 

[YesChickenNuggets]

This is apples and oranges. Making a product better than it has to be is a lot different than making a product to solve non-existent problems.

Sure, there's a difference in motivation, Paul is a criminal conman, but that doesn't mean other banal/legitimate product endeavors do not incur significant wastefulness.

 

[DonR]

We should all know our own limitations. I am perfectly happy with 16bits as I know my own hearing cannot discern anything better than 85-90db of noise. If you have a bat's ear, 115db might be necessary. I agree that in the rarified atmosphere, it's just chasing numbers but at least these products fit a purpose.

 

[Sokel]

There are some lines here but I would like someone to elaborate about the background with some hard theory and evidence:

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Blumlein 88]

Sure, there's a difference in motivation, Paul is a criminal conman, but that doesn't mean other banal/legitimate product endeavors do not incur significant wastefulness.

Well there are at least a couple threads more or less about this topic. The line you can draw is a bit gray and wide. You can have beyond all possible audibility. Audiblity almost no one could manage or audibility with music. All different levels. So hard to make an absolute totally definitive cut off unless you go with beyond all possible audibility. So that would be SINADs of 1150120 db. And there is more to audibility than just a simple SINAD number.

Sokel beat me to posting one of those other threads.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Whilst I think the analogy is flawed, it does raise a few interesting points (for me at least).
Let's not kid ourselves, ASR has been very influential in DAC development. I think Amir has played a very big part in disrupting the industry. We are well beyond the point at which there's any audible benefit to better-measuring DACs (a bit like cables, why bother measuring them when we know they all sound the same)
So from an audibility perspective I see little point in the excitement that comes with each new golfing-panther DAC, they've all sounded identical for ages.

Indeed, I see measurements of the latest and greatest SINAD DACs as in a way, stifling innovation. ASR should use its undeniable influence to push development in areas that need it. Yes I know there are plenty of speakers and amps being measured, that's great, but please... no more perfect DACs...

 

[DonR]

Whilst I think the analogy is flawed, it does raise a few interesting points (for me at least).
Let's not kid ourselves, ASR has been very influential in DAC development. I think Amir has played a very big part in disrupting the industry. We are well beyond the point at which there's any audible benefit to better-measuring DACs (a bit like cables, why bother measuring them when we know they all sound the same)
So from an audibility perspective I see little point in the excitement that comes with each new golfing-panther DAC, they've all sounded identical for ages.

Indeed, I see measurements of the latest and greatest SINAD DACs as in a way, stifling innovation. ASR should use its undeniable influence to push development in areas that need it. Yes I know there are plenty of speakers and amps being measured, that's great, but please... no more perfect DACs...

That's why I vote these DACs with the price factor under consideration. My threshold of what makes a good DAC is lower in lower with time due to progress in product development and the ongoing deterioration of my hearing.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Whilst I think the analogy is flawed, it does raise a few interesting points (for me at least).
Let's not kid ourselves, ASR has been very influential in DAC development. I think Amir has played a very big part in disrupting the industry. We are well beyond the point at which there's any audible benefit to better-measuring DACs (a bit like cables, why bother measuring them when we know they all sound the same)
So from an audibility perspective I see little point in the excitement that comes with each new golfing-panther DAC, they've all sounded identical for ages.

Indeed, I see measurements of the latest and greatest SINAD DACs as in a way, stifling innovation. ASR should use its undeniable influence to push development in areas that need it. Yes I know there are plenty of speakers and amps being measured, that's great, but please... no more perfect DACs...

I like the term saying DACs "are a solved problem". Same is true of most audio gear except transducers.

 

[YesChickenNuggets]

Baloney.

This is why we need Amir to A/B, otherwise we won't know. Something measure better, ok, but if I only have $xxx, how much should I spend on an amp/pre/speaker. Without taking the human element into account, I don't think it's so easy to make the call.

 

[AudioStudies]

Baloney.

But what if I am Vegan . . .

 

[krabapple]

Baloney.

What is more well established is that Amir knows comparison techniques that optimize detection of small differences. Detection using these techniques does not mean the differences will be audible in normal listening, much less 'even my wife could hear it'.

 

[YesChickenNuggets]

But what if I am Vegan . . .

the science says you are correct.

 

[YesChickenNuggets]

What is more well established is that Amir knows comparison techniques that optimize detection of small differences. Detection using these techniques does not mean the differences will be audible in normal listening, much less 'even my wife could hear it'.

Make them a/b it too. Free slave labor, I mean family activity.

 

[SoNic]

A/B tests don't reveal all the differences.
Switching fast between two sources to see differences, is assuming that ALL the hearing is in the ears... Reality is that the brain will be overwhelmed and blend those two together.
Heck, that's why we see movies as continuous when they are a bunch of static pictures. Brain leveling the experience.

Is like swapping really quickly, in front of your eyes (on a computer screen), two pictures with small differences (or where's Waldo) and when you can't see anything different (or can't find Waldo) you postulate that the pictures are identical and anyone saying otherwise is stupid or a hoaxer. It's not only the eye/ear that matters, but also the brain behind it.
What makes it worse is that you will see big differences, but not subtle ones. And you will feel that, since you saw some differences, you saw ALL of them.

 

[LTig]

A/B tests don't reveal all the differences.
Switching fast between two sources to see differences, is assuming that ALL the hearing is in the ears... Reality is that the brain will be overwhelmed and blend those two together.
Heck, that's why we see movies as continuous when they are a bunch of static pictures. Brain leveling the experience.

Is like swapping really quickly, in front of your eyes (on a computer screen), two pictures with small differences (or where's Waldo) and when you can't see anything different (or can't find Waldo) you postulate that the pictures are identical and anyone saying otherwise is stupid or a hoaxer. It's not only the eye/ear that matters, but also the brain behind it.
What makes it worse is that you will see big differences, but not subtle ones. And you will feel that, since you saw some differences, you saw ALL of them.

Is there any serious research which confirms your claim?

 

[Blumlein 88]

A/B tests don't reveal all the differences.
Switching fast between two sources to see differences, is assuming that ALL the hearing is in the ears... Reality is that the brain will be overwhelmed and blend those two together.
Heck, that's why we see movies as continuous when they are a bunch of static pictures. Brain leveling the experience.

Is like swapping really quickly, in front of your eyes (on a computer screen), two pictures with small differences (or where's Waldo) and when you can't see anything different (or can't find Waldo) you postulate that the pictures are identical and anyone saying otherwise is stupid or a hoaxer. It's not only the eye/ear that matters, but also the brain behind it.
What makes it worse is that you will see big differences, but not subtle ones. And you will feel that, since you saw some differences, you saw ALL of them.

Yet, fast switching whether for ears or eyes indicates subjects detect smaller differences than the other way. In opposition to your supposition. Neither is your supposition that such testing assumes all hearing is in the ears correct. It has developed as a result of which method is more discriminating. There are fewer assumptions in that methodology than in your post. Some important parameters for why that is the case are very much in how the brain works. Like echoic memory, ioconic memory and haptic memory.

 

[dshreter]

Buying a DAC is a very reasonable thing to do, it provides an essential function in a digital audio system. Choosing a DAC with high SINAD makes sense - you wouldn’t say a chair is a waste because it can hold a 400 lb person, and the same applies here that there’s nothing wrong with being overspec’d.

I would say replacing a good DAC just to get one with higher SINAD and no other functional benefits is a waste of resources. And buying a DAC because it is king of SINAD also seems silly unless it also corresponds to the overall ideal feature set for you.