How Much Improvement by Upgrading Amp?

[Tomino]

A question for those wiser and more experienced than me, on improving the sound from my Revel F208s by possibly changing amps from a relatively inexpensive AV receiver to a quality class D 2-channel stereo amp.

I've placed the speakers carefully and used REW and a measurement mic for room EQ. Currently the speakers are driven by an Onkyo TX NR686 AV receiver. Not exactly an audiophile component, but it drives the speakers to more than adequate volume, and generally sounds good. Here are the specs from Onkyo's website:

My question is: how much audible improvement, if any, would I hear in my system if I used an amp switcher to play music files through a dedicated class D amp in the $600 - $1000 range, like maybe one based on Hypex or Purifi components? I would still use the AV amp for TV.

My subjective experience with headphones is that the bass noticeably fills out with more power, independent of volume.

My hunch is, the decreased distortion of a better amp would not be very noticeable, but the increased power well might be. I mostly, but not exclusively, listen to classical music FWIW.

Thoughts welcome on how best to spend my audio budget. I fear the wait for <$1000 AV receiver with quality amplification could be a very long one.

 

[Blumlein 88]

The above is from the Onkyo manual.

Hard to say how much it would help. I would think maybe the AVR is marginal. Depends somewhat on the size of your room too. I am guessing it might sound cleaner on the very loudest portion of musical tracks. Hard to say if it will sound 10% better to you or how it will be perceived. The rating at 10% distortion at 1 khz one channel driven at 6 ohms is a bit concerning for the real capabilities of the AVR. But we often over-estimate how much power will help or how little will sound okay.

I do have some F208s being driven by an old Wyred4Sound class D amp (250 wpc at 8 ohm, something like twice that into 4 ohms). I have a moderately large room. Neither the amp nor the speakers seem a bottleneck. I've used another class D amp with 150 wpc @ 8 ohms and 300 @ 4 ohms. It also was fine for the speakers. Revel suggests 50-350 watts for these speakers. The F208 does get below 4 ohms at several frequencies where power is needed. So the AVR might be iffy on current needed at times. I know this isn't the definitive answer you are looking to find. Sorry.

 

[Timcognito]

If you are using the system for TV too maybe a get better AVR and that will allow you to get full surround at some point if you don't have it already. The Onkyo TX-RZ50 with Dirac room correction is currently deeply discounted at $8-900 from $1500. The RZ70 is on sale to with a bit more power. Just food for thought.

 

[alvigg]

I upgraded from ATI 1500 series amps to Buckeye ones and it was a noticeable improvement. Also weigh very little.

 

[mixsit]

..My subjective experience with headphones is that the bass noticeably fills out with more power, independent of volume.

That's an interesting observation.

 

[mixsit]

My response there wasn't very useful. :>)
Better to say that's something I have not ever noticed.

 

[kemmler3D]

If you are running out of juice you will probably notice a bit more bass or cleaner sound with a beefier amp.

However, the revels are pretty sensitive and you have a credible ~200w to drive them. Unless you are in a big room and like to listen rather loud, I'd be surprised if you were maxing it out. If you listen pretty loud in a big room then an audible improvement is plausible with a bigger amp.

 

[ppataki]

A question for those wiser and more experienced than me, on improving the sound from my Revel F208s by possibly changing amps from a relatively inexpensive AV receiver to a quality class D 2-channel stereo amp.

I've placed the speakers carefully and used REW and a measurement mic for room EQ. Currently the speakers are driven by an Onkyo TX NR686 AV receiver. Not exactly an audiophile component, but it drives the speakers to more than adequate volume, and generally sounds good. Here are the specs from Onkyo's website:

My question is: how much audible improvement, if any, would I hear in my system if I used an amp switcher to play music files through a dedicated class D amp in the $600 - $1000 range, like maybe one based on Hypex or Purifi components? I would still use the AV amp for TV.

My subjective experience with headphones is that the bass noticeably fills out with more power, independent of volume.

My hunch is, the decreased distortion of a better amp would not be very noticeable, but the increased power well might be. I mostly, but not exclusively, listen to classical music FWIW.

Thoughts welcome on how best to spend my audio budget. I fear the wait for <$1000 AV receiver with quality amplification could be a very long one.

I would just order any amp and then send it back if there is no audible improvement
There is zero risk

What is your source?

My subjective experience with headphones is that the bass noticeably fills out with more power, independent of volume.

When listening through headphones you basically 'skip' the room. There will be no room modes to mess around with your bass, hence in most of the cases you will interpret headphone bass to be 'cleaner' and more precise
I personally stopped comparing headphones with home environment listening for the above mentioned reason

 

[amper42]

A question for those wiser and more experienced than me, on improving the sound from my Revel F208s by possibly changing amps from a relatively inexpensive AV receiver to a quality class D 2-channel stereo amp.

I've placed the speakers carefully and used REW and a measurement mic for room EQ. Currently the speakers are driven by an Onkyo TX NR686 AV receiver. Not exactly an audiophile component, but it drives the speakers to more than adequate volume, and generally sounds good. Here are the specs from Onkyo's website:

My question is: how much audible improvement, if any, would I hear in my system if I used an amp switcher to play music files through a dedicated class D amp in the $600 - $1000 range, like maybe one based on Hypex or Purifi components? I would still use the AV amp for TV.

My subjective experience with headphones is that the bass noticeably fills out with more power, independent of volume.

My hunch is, the decreased distortion of a better amp would not be very noticeable, but the increased power well might be. I mostly, but not exclusively, listen to classical music FWIW.

Thoughts welcome on how best to spend my audio budget. I fear the wait for <$1000 AV receiver with quality amplification could be a very long one.

I noticed more clarity taking the AVR out of the chain and using the RME ADI-2 DAC FS with a Purifi or a Hypex NCx500 with my Revels. If you simply add the amp but still use the AVR it's likely the difference in sound may be minimal at normal listening levels. However, you may notice additional clarity on peaks.

But when you take the AVR out of the chain and use the XLR connectors between the ADI-2 DAC FS and even a Hypex NC502MP you will definitely notice a difference. Install the software app to setup the "Loudness" feature just the way you want it on the ADI-2 DAC and your Revels will sing.

 

[boxerfan88]

Years back when I moved from AVR driven L+R, to using DA&T A38 integrated driven L+R, the difference was quite apparent. My way to describe it is “cleaner”, like a window got cleaned; and a little more “dynamic”.

Purely subjective. No charts to prove what i heard.

On a side note, long ago someone shared with me that inside the AVR, all the multiple amps will be demanding power from the poor single power supply. Depending on dynamic load, may affect L+R channel performance.

My advice is to go ahead to get a dedicated amplifier for L+R, hopefully with HT bypass for easy integration with AVR.

 

[Tomino]

I would just order any amp and then send it back if there is no audible improvement
There is zero risk

What is your source?


When listening through headphones you basically 'skip' the room. There will be no room modes to mess around with your bass, hence in most of the cases you will interpret headphone bass to be 'cleaner' and more precise
I personally stopped comparing headphones with home environment listening for the above mentioned reason

Thanks ppataki -- My source is an outboard DAC (SMSL Sanskrit 10th Mark II), using a Raspberry Pi to stream from a Roon library and a Qobuz subscription service. Room EQ filters created with REW are implemented through Roon. I'm satisfied that the source side of the equation is solid.

I take your point on headphone bass, and I want to be careful about transferring the lessons of one to the other. But the before-and-after I'm describing here is the same headphones and same source, only adding power. The fact that the bass was noticeably fuller was something that struck me.

Some possible reasons that a more powerful amp would have better bass, even at equal volume?:

• Better transient response
• More headroom
• Greater dynamic range
• Better "control"

I don't know, but I think it's a compelling case.

 

[Tomino]

If you are running out of juice you will probably notice a bit more bass or cleaner sound with a beefier amp.

However, the revels are pretty sensitive and you have a credible ~200w to drive them. Unless you are in a big room and like to listen rather loud, I'd be surprised if you were maxing it out. If you listen pretty loud in a big room then an audible improvement is plausible with a bigger amp.

Thanks kemmler3D -- So, I don't listen loud, I wouldn't say. i think 85dB would be high for me. And it's not a big room -- about 20' by 15'. So I take your point that my system would seem pretty adequate.

I'm curious, though, what's your take on the points I made to ppataki about how a more powerful amp could improve sound even at lower volumes?

I saw a video once where some folks set up a massive amp in a fancy system and ran it through a device that displayed the wattage in use in real time. Playing some bass-heavy electronic music, the amount the speakers were pulling was surprisingly high.

 

[ppataki]

My source is an outboard DAC (SMSL Sanskrit 10th Mark II), using a Raspberry Pi to stream from a Roon library and a Qobuz subscription service. Room EQ filters created with REW are implemented through Roon. I'm satisfied that the source side of the equation is solid.

OK, that's good - in this case what you really need is a power amp

I would recommend taking a look at this:

Fosi Audio V3 Mono Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Fosi Audio V3 Mono class D amplifier. It was sent to me by the company. The price with the power supply I tested is US $139.99. I must say the concept of a "monoblock" amplifier in such a small size runs foul of any expectation a longtime...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And if you have more budget, then this:

TOPPING B200 Mono Pure Power Amplifier

Buy TOPPING B200 Mono Pure Power Amplifier with Free shipping on HiFiGo, you can enjoy a year warranty and the best after-sales service.

hifigo.com

There is a smaller brother of the above, the B100 but maybe in your use-case the power might not be enough so I would not recommend that

 

[ppataki]

And forgot to mention this one:

Topping PA7 Plus Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping PA7 Plus stereo class D amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $549. The PA7 Plus is stylish with firm switches that have nice action. You can select power on/off or trigger input. In addition, you have a choice of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I have both the PA7 Plus and the V3 mono and both are fantastic amps, strongly recommended

 

[Tomino]

I noticed more clarity taking the AVR out of the chain and using the RME ADI-2 DAC FS with a Purifi or a Hypex NCx500 with my Revels. If you simply add the amp but still use the AVR it's likely the difference in sound may be minimal at normal listening levels. However, you may notice additional clarity on peaks.

But when you take the AVR out of the chain and use the XLR connectors between the ADI-2 DAC FS and even a Hypex NC502MP you will definitely notice a difference. Install the software app to setup the "Loudness" feature just the way you want it on the ADI-2 DAC and your Revels will sing.

Thanks. I'm using an outboard DAC now. Were I to get another amp, I would get an external switcher and run that DAC only to the dedicated stereo amp.

 

[Blumlein 88]

And forgot to mention this one:

Topping PA7 Plus Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping PA7 Plus stereo class D amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $549. The PA7 Plus is stylish with firm switches that have nice action. You can select power on/off or trigger input. In addition, you have a choice of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I have both the PA7 Plus and the V3 mono and both are fantastic amps, strongly recommended

The amps you suggested while good are not really more power than the avr. If going for another amp I think getting something with more power and current would be wise. One of the larger Hypex or Purifi amps.

 

[Tomino]

And forgot to mention this one:

Topping PA7 Plus Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping PA7 Plus stereo class D amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $549. The PA7 Plus is stylish with firm switches that have nice action. You can select power on/off or trigger input. In addition, you have a choice of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I have both the PA7 Plus and the V3 mono and both are fantastic amps, strongly recommended

Thanks so much for these recommendations. I confess I haven't wrapped my head around the mono block concept. I'll have to educate myself more on that.

If my supposition about better transient response, control, etc are correct, then it sounds like for not more than $1500, including switcher, I would enjoy an improvement. I would also need to redo my filters.

 

[Tomino]

The amps you suggested while good are not really more power than the avr. If going for another amp I think getting something with more power and current would be wise. One of the larger Hypex or Purifi amps.

Interesting. That is what I had in mind prior to putting this post out there, and that still seems an appealing option. (I would assume Buckeye would be a reasonable choice?)

It does look like the Topping B200 monoblock Blumlein88 recommends comes in at about 200W, which would be a significant step up from what I have now.

 

[JeremyFife]

If your Onkyo is not clipping, and you are not running out of volume - which you suggest you are not - then you are not using all of its available power (100W @ 8Ohms). Getting another amp with more power won't help since you don't need and won't use those extra watts anyway.

However, some members have noted that your Revels can dip down to 4Ohms and they also note the possibility of increased distortion from your Onkyo (although you don't hear anything).

It might make a difference to try an amp that is stable with more difficult loads - have a look at the review section here and focus on that rather than additional power. It just so happens that you will probably end up with more power too, but power alone is not what you appear to need.

 

[Matias]

I suggest you try a Purifi amp from Buckeye and you will be very satisfied.