Getting vocals in focus

[Wombat]

Normal focusing:

Audiophile focusing:

 

[RPG]

In my case, the measured impulse response with a mono sweep was excellent (I use a laser to set distance from MLP). Either due to a slight hearing imbalance or room issues, a +1 db balance adjustment to the left speaker (this can be done with my RME ADI-2) has no effect on the perceived centering of voices (and correlated pink noise), but it clearly makes a difference when using the "Precise Location and Depth of Field" tracks from the "Audiophile Speaker Set-up disc. Prior to this adjustment, the right voice, triangle and wood block were where they were supposed to be (far right), but the same left speaker sounds were shifted just a bit to the right. Setting the ADI to a value of "10L" (which is equivalent to about +1db) seems to deal with this very nicely.

 

[stunta]

Changing the distance to one speaker of the pair will move the percieved center.

If the image is to the left, move the right speaker forward a little.

What a difference!! Thank you, Ray. I used the XLO phase test. Toed the speakers in more so the horns are pointing right at me (cannot see the sides of the speakers from MLP) and this helped with focus but the voice was still left of center. Started pulling right speaker forward and the voice locked in after a few inches.

what is still a problem is the sweet spot is narrow. If I move my head a bit (About 6 in I think) to either side, the voice is no longer centered.

 

[RayDunzl]

what is still a problem is the sweet spot is narrow.

The "sweet spot" is a point equidistant between the two speakers.

Anyplace else is a compromise.

You never see it called "the sweet area" do you? I haven't.

 

[stunta]

The "sweet spot" is a point equidistant between the two speakers.

Anyplace else is a compromise.

You never see it called "the sweet area" do you? I haven't.

I didn't realize we were being that pedantic What are the textbook dimensions of a spot?

The manual (see my earlier post) talks about being within the 30 deg window around the axis. I figured that would be the sweet "area"

 

[AnalogSteph]

what is still a problem is the sweet spot is narrow. If I move my head a bit (About 6 in I think) to either side, the voice is no longer centered.

That seems very constricted given your distances. If it were this bad relative to my usual <0.5 m, I'd pretty much have to clamp my head in a vise. There has to be some comb filtering going on between different propagation paths.

Again, try toeing in the speakers even more, so you're up to 30° off-axis if really necessary. Try identifying reflection points at the left-hand side wall in particular, where you could then attempt to either (a) absorb (b) diffuse or even (c) deflect sound with an angled wall (board) so it goes well past the MLP and is reflected into the open area by the back wall.

 

[RayDunzl]

I didn't realize we were being that pedantic

I was aiming for didactic.

 

[jsrtheta]

I was aiming for didactic.

This made me rethink a few things, which is almost always good. Thanks!

 

[stunta]

I was aiming for didactic.

That was a recursive statement Today I learnt the difference.

 

[JungleXray]

I can share what worked for me. Dirac. Now vocals are pinpoint and vividly realistic.

 

[dasdoing]

the only way to make the sweet spot bigger in 2.0 is widening the stereo traingle.
it could be done with 3.0 https://www.avsforum.com/threads/upmixing-stereo-music-into-true-3-channel-stereo-not-3-0.3164657/

 

[ernestcarl]

I found an avsforum thread that seems useful but I am not technical enough to confirm its accuracy: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/seos-toe-in.1655081/page-2#post-44964258

Images below from the M2 (708P is based on the M2 design) manual. I will try adjusting the toe-in to see if that helps.

View attachment 81562
View attachment 81563

I've repositioned my couch setup myself (yet again) and now have currently set the front monitors at extreme angles so that they cross each other right in the middle or way in front of the MLP. The MLP is at the very edge of this 30-degree max recommended angle or 15-degrees off-set from the speaker's center axis -- any more toed-in makes center vocals too diffuse sounding. Presonus (Sceptre S8) specifies a horizontal horn dispersion pattern of 110 degrees and so I've utilized this to my advantage -- angled just enough within the horn's dispersion limit so that the high frequencies do not reflect back from the side-walls.

Unfortunately, I could not re-use my original EQ settings. I've also been rather lazy so I have not individually EQ'd each monitor extensively as before, but just simply chose to EQ them in sum from lowest bass frequencies all the way up to just a little over 300Hz (max HR req'd only about 3.3 dB in total including the rears).

The imaging is 'less pin-point' or precise and clear than if the speakers were aimed exactly towards my ears, but it does widen the sweet-spot considerably. So I can sit off-center quite a bit or even lean towards the left side or right side and still get a decent center phantom image. Another thing that helped was by putting my sub near the mid-point between the speakers and applying a higher xo (90Hz) so the bass is not too overpowering when sitting on either extreme ends of the couch.

I use a laser distance meter to make sure both front monitors are 2.01x meters from my forehead at the MLP, and that the rears are 1.41x meters each. I use REW's acoustic timing reference to adjust the delay of the rears relative to the opposite front monitor -- e.g. front left monitor as reference for rear right monitor etc. JRiver has an audio calibration tool, and I find it essential that the relative volume is balanced between all drivers. Adding a few dBs to the sub or subtracting a few dBs from the mains post your previous filtering adjustments can potentially cause some degree of phase cancellation yet all over again -- e.g. when I subtraced 2dB from the sub channel in post.

To a lesser degree, I've toed-in the rears quite a bit as well to take advantage of their waveguide's dispersion pattern and minimize unwanted reflections from the back wall.

The only other main side effect (besides a slightly more diffuse sound effect) from the "extreme toe-in" of the front speakers is the horn-induced "flare up" at higher frequencies, which isn't altogether too noticeable:

post EQ 300Hz and down

PEQ set 1 (or input stage)

Room Correction' (or rather more accurately xo/bass management stage)

PEQ set 2 (or output stage)

just ignore the phase cancellation artifact around 10kHz from summing

Applied default FDW and Var smoothing for clarity

The native phase response of the Sceptre's should be near flat down to around 100Hz. Obviously, reflections and summing together with the rears (JBL LSR305 -- 13dB down from fronts due to upmixing) alters that view considerably. Notably, the higher frequencies from the LSR305s are just smidge little bit more advanced or forward in time relative to my (almost phase-flat) coaxial mains. But this is not so important as long as it's impulse is within a ms or two. Most (more like all) subs across their bandlimited range/span will have 2 to 3 phase wrap-arounds so no surprise there.

Curiously (due to the horn's beamwidth control and extreme angling), sitting at the extreme-most edges of the couch now causes the phantom image to sound as though it's just between the closer monitor and the center of the projector screen (which is an improvement) -- sorry, forgot to mention I've got no center channel. However, sitting right between the extreme edges of the couch and the center MLP causes the phantom image to sound much more focused towards the closer monitor (not so great image-wise -- but the summed tonality and timbre is better than when seated at the extreme ends of the couch -- which was closer/nearer to the side-walls).

Anyhows, this somewhat 'extreme toe-in' setup is better overall for a larger seating area than if I just placed them in the regular way written in most studio monitor manuals.

 

[andreasmaaan]

What a difference!! Thank you, Ray. I used the XLO phase test. Toed the speakers in more so the horns are pointing right at me (cannot see the sides of the speakers from MLP) and this helped with focus but the voice was still left of center. Started pulling right speaker forward and the voice locked in after a few inches.

what is still a problem is the sweet spot is narrow. If I move my head a bit (About 6 in I think) to either side, the voice is no longer centered.

You might gain some additional "area" (as Ray aptly doesn't quite put it) by further toeing in the speakers so that they are pointing to a spot a small distance in front of you. Your speakers have nicely controlled directivity, so by pointing them a bit in front of you, you will create a situation whereby a head movement to the left increases the level of the right speaker and vice-versa (a.k.a. time-intensity trading). This may give your head a bit more freedom of movement short of the image collapsing.

EDIT: you should be good up to about 15° off-axis with your speakers, give or take.

 

[denari.novah]

The vocals in music are not in focus with my 708Ps. There seems to be this one specific position that my head needs to be in to get them to be in focus and even then they are slightly off center and only about 3 feet off the ground (the speakers are sitting on FM8 subwoofers that are on isoacoustic bases). The speakers are toed in and pointing ~1 feet either side of my ears at my MLP and the distances form an equilateral triangle.

Any suggestions on what I should be changing to get the vocals Showbox jiofi.local.html tplinklogin to be in focus and also not be so sensitive to me moving my head even an inch?

I have the system calibrated with Dirac Live and so I don't move my speakers fearing they will need a recalibration. If I adjust toe-in and re-calibrate, will I then be stuck in an endless loop?

I do have an OmniMic room measurement mic and software, so I could measure the impulse response and, if need be, physically move a speaker a bit closer. One question on that.....what did you use to generate the REW impulse measurement....a single tone or a sweep, or....????