Genelec W371A + The Ones : My quest for the Grail is over

[srrxr71]

Yes and no. If you as an audiophile don't have a room that have the dimensions for good bass response you can not compare the two in bass quality. GLM can not do the magic with a subwoofer if you have massive dips etc. In quantity the 7380 is always more.
The W371A is a tool for audio engineers to get the best possible frequency response in their room. For professionals a minor dip can make their work unmanageable. Even in many studios you can not fight the acoustics in the bass range and here the W371A shines.

I have wrote before in this thread that some people believe that these bass towers are some animals that can put out huge and deep bass impact. Perhaps they can but they are not designed for that IMO. If you're looking for that, go with normal subwoofers.
If your room is "quite" good, go with subwoofers. If you're fighting acoustics, go with the towers.

Many professionals are using the W371A with great success. I'm not a professional but I'm happy that I chose this path. I'm really enjoying them. But as always. Audition, audition and audition before buying. Only mad people would throw such money without knowing what they are buying.

You and I know the rear woofer is the one doing the deep bass and it’s more than sufficient for me. I want more just more volume in general including midbass.

That’s where this driver does not keep up.

Also stop calling people mad. I knew I was going to get this anyway for what it purports to do. Yet to distorts like this at even 108dBC.

Just because you’re too afraid to test it doesn’t mean others won’t.

This many professionals excuse is getting silly. Then why not they trade their pair for mine?

Probably they are asking too much from that front woofer design. What you heard is band passed down to the rear woofer which is perfectly capable of delivering more deep bass than I need. This driver just not capable of handling whatever band it’s asked to do. Which is likely 100-250Hz. Maybe it overlaps with the rear woofer to some extent probably to 60Hz given the spec. Nobody knows except Genelec.

The amount that you just defend Genelec is suspect. You haven’t even tested yours. The one gentlemen who did found the same. He’s just decided to take it up outside this forum.

 

[srrxr71]

My room has a reasonable response up to 100Hz but not so to 500Hz. I don't think the 7380 can help with that problem regardless.

No it cannot. I had the same issue. Very good to 100Hz then after that I had a deep narrow dip around 110Hz and some other wider but shallower dips around 250Hz.

This unit solves those problems. But does so with this distortion.

 

[aland]

You and I know the rear woofer is the one doing the deep bass and it’s more than sufficient for me. I want more just more volume in general including midbass.

That’s where this driver does not keep up.

Also stop calling people mad. I knew I was going to get this anyway for what it purports to do. Yet to distorts like this at even 108dBC.

Just because you’re too afraid to test it doesn’t mean others won’t.

This many professionals excuse is getting silly. Then why not they trade their pair for mine?

Probably they are asking too much from that front woofer design. What you heard is band passed down to the rear woofer which is perfectly capable of delivering more deep bass than I need. This driver just not capable of handling whatever band it’s asked to do. Which is likely 100-250Hz. Maybe it overlaps with the rear woofer to some extent probably to 60Hz given the spec. Nobody knows except Genelec.

The amount that you just defend Genelec is suspect. You haven’t even tested yours. The one gentlemen who did found the same. He’s just decided to take it up outside this forum.

Could you calm down? The post you quoted did not refer to you. Have you read your name somewhere there? I don't read in my text that I'm defending Genelec, anywhere. I have no reason to defend or promote. And yes, Genelecs are mostly used by professionals so nothing wrong there either. I was only trying to explain the difference between 7380 and W371 to a forum member and that's disturbing you? You have seriously some issues (with me?).

 

[YSC]

I think it’s both. Especially in complementary mode. The one huge USP is the front mid woofer.

So it seems it’s job to handle midbass and take it from the main. Its secondary job is to help the rear woofer.

This is abundantly clear when you test the front and rear woofers. The rear woofer in my estimation is basically a 7370. It pounds hard and does so without any spurious output at any level. It’s quite incredible.

It sets the stage for the front woofer to learn from.

The issue is the front woofer has double duty. It has the mids to handle and it has some band it must handle in the bass. But it never gets anywhere near as deep as the rear woofer.

I have attached a picture of it. Its surround is completely different from the rear’s rubber surround. In fact it seems to be a folded paper (composite fiber let’s say) material. So having that dual role it is a very different design from any woofer I’ve ever seen. It must be stable enough to handle mid bass to 500Hz and also allow for some excursion.

It is during these excursions that this spurious output occurs.

If that's what it is it seems like pushing deep bass in test mode of front only. high SPL would be out of it's design. if the rear woofer works it should be great all round without issue? not sure if the 3db headroom is the unit variance or room loading like reflection from a surface partially out of phase causing cancellation? need to place both speaker in same spot to check for sure maybe?

 

[srrxr71]

Or very rich people

Oh come on. It’s point is to bring the same level of correction the subs can do to 100Hz to a theoretical 500hz but in most practical situations to about 250Hz.

It does that. But without the necessary headroom to do so anywhere near its rates spec.

If it met its rated spec then all this writing would be unnecessary and all this speculation that i’m asking it to do more than it is capable of would be moot.

It’s one thing for some guy who bought it to defend his “honor” in terms of his purchase decision to make this assumption that the issue is deep bass. It was another for some low level guy at Genelec Finland to make that assumption and recommend a 7380.

Do these people not understand that the issue is not deep bass? How is the 7380 going to mitigate this problem where the midbass output has spurious distortion?

Can any one of these guys understand and answer that? Or will they keep repeating themselves like a broken record?

It’s been the same:

“He wants more deep bass than these can provide”

“He didn’t know what he’s buying”

“He’s mad”

“This is not for everyone just for snowflakes like me”

“He’s using it wrong”

“He has more money than sense”


Such folks, please get past your thick skulls that the front midbass driver does not keep up with either mains or the rock solid rear woofer without giving up and providing spurious output

Also stop calling that front unit a woofer. It’s is not. If it can handle in theory up to 500hz then it is a midbass unit. Nobody knows how drop it goes but we know how high it goes.

This is a woofer system with a front midbass and the rear subwoofer. There is some overlap but that is what each driver is meant to handle.

People talking like I don’t understand that while clearly demonstrating a lack of that understanding.

So basically for me this was to fix my 100-300Hz dips or various shapes and sizes while upgrading my 2x7360 to 2x7370.

If it does that without spitting out spurious output then I have no complaints.

I hope those with difficult reading comprehension could understand that one statement.

 

[srrxr71]

Could you calm down? The post you quoted did not refer to you. Have you read your name somewhere there? I don't read in my text that I'm defending Genelec, anywhere. I have no reason to defend or promote. And yes, Genelecs are mostly used by professionals so nothing wrong there either. I was only trying to explain the difference between 7380 and W371 to a forum member and that's disturbing you? You have seriously some issues (with me?).

Then why have you not tested it? You’d rather not know right? Wouldn’t want to spoil the Genelec name.

You’ve been claiming that only certain people must buy this. This is not for “bass heads” to paraphrase.

You even got wrong what this does. It is primarily a midbass unit with a built in subwoofer. But having both in the same unit allows for those bass steering tricks as the position of the 2 are known.

That front midbass unit does not keep up. Yo I will see once you get the idea to check yourself instead of hiding behind but professional use it and they are okay with it.

I’ll be honest with you. The fact that you don’t bother to test yours and report honestly on a science based forum (you remember the scientific method - it involves testing for yourself not just spouting who uses it etc). Means you don’t really see the value in science discovery. Just blindly take what is sold to you as true. Just like for millennia we took a flat earth as true.

No issues with you personally. But issues with your stance. Why don’t you test it? If you don’t then what input do you have beyond “but but professionals are happy with it”

“Would you believe professionals or this mad guy who had $18k to burn?”

You may be well versed in semantics but what you’re saying is easily understood by both your words and your (lack of) action.

Just test it and tell us honestly whether it happens on your pair or not. It’s that simple.

 

[Hmast]

No it cannot. I had the same issue. Very good to 100Hz then after that I had a deep narrow dip around 110Hz and some other wider but shallower dips around 250Hz.

This unit solves those problems. But does so with this distortion.

But why can it resolve those problems and the 8351B can't? Both units are usually set up on each other so at the same place in the room.

 

[srrxr71]

If that's what it is it seems like pushing deep bass in test mode of front only. high SPL would be out of it's design. if the rear woofer works it should be great all round without issue? not sure if the 3db headroom is the unit variance or room loading like reflection from a surface partially out of phase causing cancellation? need to place both speaker in same spot to check for sure maybe?

I can and have moved them further from the completely treated rear wall. In fact they are now 1.47m from me and further from the wall.

The rear woofer handles deep bass. So what this woofer that you see in the video is doing is only handling a small fraction of deep bass if any.

High SPL is out of its design in deep bass however it must keep up with other drivers in the band range that GLM asked it to do.

Also any cancellations would be part of the GLM calibration. As in the calibration ensures a certain FR regardless of any nearby surfaces which could induce said cancellations.

 

[srrxr71]

But why can it resolve those problems and the 8351B can't? Both units are usually set up on each other so at the same place in the room.

Because the front woofer is much more directional when it takes over from 250Hz than the Omni midbass of the 8351. That’s without any cancellation or directivity features available in continued directivity mode. Just the 14” of it makes it directive.

When you engage the other modes then it adds active cancellation strategies to hone that directivity as needed.

All my tests are in the “native” complementary mode. So far.

 

[Hmast]

$20K for a pair of W371A, daaaaam'

So curious to hear that.

 

[srrxr71]

I

$20K for a pair of W371A, daaaaam'

So curious to hear that.

PM me maybe I can help. .

 

[jhenderson0107]

​

srrxr71:

Quoting Lord Kelvin: “When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science.”

This is relevant because your reports in this thread are anectodal and do not contain measurement data. In quote #526 above you state that others should employ the scientific method to vindicate your assertions. I suggest that that you use your mic and REW to obtain some measurements. This will either solidify your case (providing details of the issue for Genelec) or lead you down a new path to resolving the problem.

 

[aland]

I'm not responding to any accuses anymore. For the rest of you I can post a frequency response from my room just to show what these speakers can do. I had some serious problems with normal subwoofers. I'm not doing this by promoting or defending Genelec. As I have written before I recommend everyone to audition speakers before buying. Doesn't matter if it's ATC, Magico or Genelec. Choose the ones that suit you best.

 

[jhenderson0107]

aland -

If I understand srrxr71 correctly, he's not asserting that the W371 frequency response is problematic. Rather, he suspects that distortion is excessive (out of specification) at playback levels of >= 108 dBA @ 1m. So, I suggest that srrxr71 measure the midbase woofer in each W371 at a distance of ~1m at progressively higher playback levels (but within specified limits) to substantiate his listening observations.

 

[aland]

aland -

If I understand srrxr71 correctly, he's not asserting that the W371 frequency response is problematic. Rather, he suspects that distortion is excessive (out of specification) at playback levels of >= 108 dBA @ 1m. So, I suggest that srrxr71 measure the midbase woofer in each W371 at a distance of ~1m at progressively higher playback levels (but within specified limits) to substantiate his listening observations.

Yes I know his problems and my posts does not concern those issues. I will wait for a recall from Genelec if they find abnormalities with this model.
My post was about the W371's bass response, unfortunately I didn't find my old measurements with dual subwoofers for comparison. But anyway you can see that they are doing a descent job for a neutral response.

 

[jhenderson0107]

Yes I know his problems and my posts does not concern those issues. I will wait for a recall from Genelec if they find abnormalities with this model.
My post was about the W371's bass response, unfortunately I didn't find my old measurements with dual subwoofers for comparison. But anyway you can see that they are doing a descent job for a neutral response.

I too have W371s + 8351s. Likewise, their frequency response measures very flat in my room as is likely true of most owners of GLM-capable products. Perhaps few routinely listen at levels exceeding 105 dBA so have not experienced the problems reported by srrxr71. Regardless, unless repeatable measurements are performed which illustrate a specification violation, the issue will remain elusive and unsolved.

 

[srrxr71]

​

srrxr71:

Quoting Lord Kelvin: “When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science.”

This is relevant because your reports in this thread are anectodal and do not contain measurement data. In quote #526 above you state that others should employ the scientific method to vindicate your assertions. I suggest that that you use your mic and REW to obtain some measurements. This will either solidify your case (providing details of the issue for Genelec) or lead you down a new path to resolving the problem.

Yes I fully intend to. On Monday at the earliest thought. I’ll provide whatever anyone asks for.

I just got the replacement amps yesterday and did a quick check.

I did post a video and wrote the GLM derived SPL dBC levels. Until Monday that’s all I have.

Can’t wait to get my UMIK mic out and start testing in REW.

I’m invested in this for ALL w371 owners and the entire community.

I think this is a great product and a great concept. It just needs to work as designed.

 

[srrxr71]

aland -

If I understand srrxr71 correctly, he's not asserting that the W371 frequency response is problematic. Rather, he suspects that distortion is excessive (out of specification) at playback levels of >= 108 dBA @ 1m. So, I suggest that srrxr71 measure the midbase woofer in each W371 at a distance of ~1m at progressively higher playback levels (but within specified limits) to substantiate his listening observations.

Yes thank you. That is exactly what I will do. I have a mic stand ready. I will keep it exactly 1m away. I will even take photos and video as requested.

Yes I would say 108dBC is around where it can start. Earlier for the right woofer perhaps.

I can’t wait to do it.

 

[CosmicDancer]

I had my 8351s dead on at my listening position ear height. A few months ago, I raised them up 4 inches or so, and the sound is much more realistic now. My ears are now 4" below the acoustical axis, but it sound better now than it did before. To be clear, the sound hasn't changed, but the location of where the perceived sound comes from has.

I also have an 8361 and agree that Twitter's slightly higher height makes the sound much more realistic.(I imagine when I'm sitting. The musician in front of me is always higher than me ) You said your ear is 4 inches below the acoustic axis, how far is it? 4 inches at a distance of 1M has an angle of 6 and 4 inches at a distance of 3M has an angle of 2. Of course, I know that it comes within 15 degrees recommended by Genelec, and there's not much difference in vertical directivity. I'm just curious

 

[srrxr71]

I too have W371s + 8351s. Likewise, their frequency response measures very flat in my room as is likely true of most owners of GLM-capable products. Perhaps few routinely listen at levels exceeding 105 dBA so have not experienced the problems reported by srrxr71. Regardless, unless repeatable measurements are performed which illustrate a specification violation, the issue will remain elusive and unsolved.

You said it better than I could have.

Depending on the music or song in question that 105dBC could be just 95dBA.

I would have never found this issue if my rear woofer did not fail and I started using the test controls to figure out what happened. That’s when I discovered it

Otherwise you would never notice it even at higher levels as the rear woofer and mains will cover it fully.

Now many folks with high end system often tolerate a surprising amount of distortion in the deeper bass regions without realizing it. Especially if they like the more spirited levels I enjoy.

I suppose it does present as spurious overtones (which are more audible as they exist in more sensitive regions of hearing). At least with Genelec I do respect that they let you test each driver and let you hear it and measure it.