First time using a DAC - sounded like sh1te

[BigMiIke]

I have a 27 inch iMac - Apple Music - out to a topping DS10 ( rave, reviews, across-the-board) out to Audioengine 3 desktop powered speakers & sub - nearfield.

I was able to achieve the elusive 192 from Apple Music - hi res bliss oh baby —- sounded like shit - I went to 96 - and to 48 / no change in power.

Significantly lower output than the actual Mac itself via USB to the speakers.

I was only doing this as a test before I use a DAC with Apple Music hi res to a whole new basement 2.1 setup I’ve been cooking up.

What could cause the significant less power drive?

I went cheap on this because I wasn’t sold on DAC’s to begin with but this one got a seal of approval.

 

[kemmler3D]

Hard to say because we don't know the output of the internal DAC of the speaker, or how much gain is applied to that vs. the RCA inputs.

Overall once you set the speaker to the same volume it shouldn't matter much whether you use the Topping or the USB input.

However, it's possible that these speakers are not doing ADC / DAC on the RCA inputs and are just sending that input straight to the internal amp. In which case, it is also bypassing any DSP on the speaker, which would tend to make it sound very bad indeed.

From the product page:

Pro Tip Achieve the best desktop audio with the HD3 by connecting via Bluetooth or USB. This bypasses your computer's standard quality audio components, instead using the HD3’s built-in DAC to enhance sound quality.

Speaking from experience, you only include this language in your marketing materials if analog in bypasses the DSP, because people will notice (as in this exact situation) that it sounds worse. So there's a good chance that's what is happening here. (I once sold a headphone that had this issue, I was very careful to include similar langage.)

Bottom line, it's the speakers' fault, not the DAC's, either way.

 

[Somafunk]

Have you selected the DS10 as audio out in Mac audio settings?

 

[BigMiIke]

Hard to say because we don't know the output of the internal DAC of the speaker, or how much gain is applied to that vs. the RCA inputs.

Overall once you set the speaker to the same volume it shouldn't matter much whether you use the Topping or the USB input.

However, it's possible that these speakers are not doing ADC / DAC on the RCA inputs and are just sending that input straight to the internal amp. In which case, it is also bypassing any DSP on the speaker, which would tend to make it sound very bad indeed.

From the product page:



Speaking from experience, you only include this language in your marketing materials if analog in bypasses the DSP, because people will notice (as in this exact situation) that it sounds worse. So there's a good chance that's what is happening here. (I once sold a headphone that had this issue, I was very careful to include similar langage.)

Bottom line, it's the speakers' fault, not the DAC's, either way.

Ahh…. Absolutely fantastic explanation- I really appreciate it.

 

[BigMiIke]

Have you selected the DS10 as audio out in Mac audio settings?

Yes - in the midi too

 

[BigMiIke]

Don’t get me wrong the sound is not muzzled and it’s not unlistenable. However, when compared to the regular set up, there’s no comparison there’s just more power and oomph coming out the Mac directly to the AE3 speakers & sub.

 

[Galliardist]

Don’t get me wrong the sound is not muzzled and it’s not unlistenable. However, when compared to the regular set up, there’s no comparison there’s just more power and oomph coming out the Mac directly to the AE3 speakers & sub.

So, it is not sounding like "sh...". You may want to amend your thread title accordingly. It has a volume issue in this particular setup.

Firstly, there is no reason at all to call Apple Music at 192 "high res bliss oh baby". It's most unlikely to give you better audio than normal 16/44,1 in practice.

Secondly, without numbers to contradict, it's unlikely that the Topping will improve sound quality over the Audioengine's own DAC as you are using it, assuming you get the volume issue sorted out. That does not mean that it is of no use in your planned new basement rig, of course.

Also, it follows from @kemmler3D's answer, that even if the volume was correct, if there is indeed additional DSP in the speaker you will either still bypass it with the DS10, or you are just including an unnecessary DAC/ADC stage in the process.

My conclusion is to just take the DS10 out of this rig. First, though, read the manuals and online support for each product just to ensure that you understand what they are doing and the best way to connect them up.

As an aside, you should be using the latest version of macOS with Apple Music, or you are just doing an internal conversion to the resolution chosen to output to the DAC, rather than converting at the resolution of the file concerned. Otherwise you will need additional software to look after that. With the DS10, you can confirm that part of the process by watching the conversion rate change according to whether you play a standard or high resolution file. This may or may not affect audio quality, and probably shouldn't, but it is something that people tend to worry about.

 

[Chrispy]

Seems mostly a poor proposition from the OP let alone the details of setup.

 

[BigMiIke]

So, it is not sounding like "sh...". You may want to amend your thread title accordingly. It has a volume issue in this particular setup.

Firstly, there is no reason at all to call Apple Music at 192 "high res bliss oh baby". It's most unlikely to give you better audio than normal 16/44,1 in practice.

Secondly, without numbers to contradict, it's unlikely that the Topping will improve sound quality over the Audioengine's own DAC as you are using it, assuming you get the volume issue sorted out. That does not mean that it is of no use in your planned new basement rig, of course.

Also, it follows from @kemmler3D's answer, that even if the volume was correct, if there is indeed additional DSP in the speaker you will either still bypass it with the DS10, or you are just including an unnecessary DAC/ADC stage in the process.

My conclusion is to just take the DS10 out of this rig. First, though, read the manuals and online support for each product just to ensure that you understand what they are doing and the best way to connect them up.

As an aside, you should be using the latest version of macOS with Apple Music, or you are just doing an internal conversion to the resolution chosen to output to the DAC, rather than converting at the resolution of the file concerned. Otherwise you will need additional software to look after that. With the DS10, you can confirm that part of the process by watching the conversion rate change according to whether you play a standard or high resolution file. This may or may not affect audio quality, and probably shouldn't, but it is something that people tend to worry about.

The DAC is definitely coming out - it sounds sht when compared.
I’m going to use it another setup to give it a fair shake; non powered speakers.

 

[OldTimer]

rca input of ae speaker

 

[voodooless]

I highly doubt these speakers have a DSP. I also can’t imagine that the Topping DAC can’t deliver enough voltage. So my vote would be that the issue is somewhere with the gain structure of the MacOS audio software, or the RCA input of the speaker is just really shit for some reason.

 

[OldTimer]

I highly doubt these speakers have a DSP. I also can’t imagine that the Topping DAC can’t deliver enough voltage. So my vote would be that the issue is somewhere with the gain structure of the MacOS audio software, or the RCA input of the speaker is just really shit for some reason.

both are using the same usb out from the imac

 

[voodooless]

both are using the same usb out from the imac

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[antcollinet]

Don’t get me wrong the sound is not muzzled and it’s not unlistenable. However, when compared to the regular set up, there’s no comparison there’s just more power and oomph coming out the Mac directly to the AE3 speakers & sub.

What happens when you turn up the volume on the speakers to compare at the same sound volume level.


To me it just looks like you have different gain staging between the speaker internal DAC and the Topping Dac. This is not a power issue (unless it is not possible to turn the speaker up to get the same SPL out)

Also make sure your Mac doesn't have any different "volume" output settings between the DAC, and speaker outputs. Make sure the DAC output is set to full volume if it is changeable.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

topping DS10 ( rave, reviews, across-the-board)

sounded like shit -

Applying simple logic: someone is wrong.

Choice 1: you are right and several other people are wrong ("across-the-board")
Choice 2: several other people are right ("rave, reviews") and you are wrong.

It's quite possible you are right and the across the board reviewers are wrong. But the onus is on you to demonstrate why you are right. One possibility is this specific DAC is faulty.

Statistically more likely you are wrong and the across the board reviewers are right. In which case, you should start with the assumption that this DAC can not, of itself, degrade your sound. In which case, what is the configuration you have achieved to degrade your sound when using this DAC, rather than blaming it

There's a third possibility. The DAC has actually improved the sound and the sound is a better representation of what is recorded, but you don't like it.

A final possibility is you have the gain structure all wrong or have DSP enabled somewhere in one config and not the other.

 

[Sokel]

Which way have you connect the DAC to the speakers?RCA or mini-jack?
Can you post a photo with the connections?

 

[Galliardist]

Applying simple logic: someone is wrong.

Choice 1: you are right and several other people are wrong ("across-the-board")
Choice 2: several other people are right ("rave, reviews") and you are wrong.

It's quite possible you are right and the across the board reviewers are wrong. But the onus is on you to demonstrate why you are right. One possibility is this specific DAC is faulty.

Statistically more likely you are wrong and the across the board reviewers are right. In which case, you should start with the assumption that this DAC can not, of itself, degrade your sound. In which case, what is the configuration you have achieved to degrade your sound when using this DAC, rather than blaming it

There's a third possibility. The DAC has actually improved the sound and the sound is a better representation of what is recorded, but you don't like it.

A final possibility is you have the gain structure all wrong or have DSP enabled somewhere in one config and not the other.

He's complaining about volume, not sound quality. There is no "degrading of the sound" going on, and most likely no "better representation of the sound" either. The simplest solution is to use the perfectly adequate DAC built into the speakers: job done.

I'm assuming he's complaining about the Topping here because that is what people do. ASR is so closely related to Topping in the minds of some, that they think that this forum is actually Topping technical support.

As it turns out, the model number is actually D10S not DS10. It is a recommended product here and has the standard RCA 2v out, so should be the same as using any other DAC with 2v out, assuming that it doesn't have a really odd impedance.

 

[BigMiIke]

rca input of ae speaker

Thats the problem eh ?

 

[BigMiIke]

Which way have you connect the DAC to the speakers?RCA or mini-jack?
Can you post a photo with the connections?

The only way is rca it appears

 

[BigMiIke]

Applying simple logic: someone is wrong.

Choice 1: you are right and several other people are wrong ("across-the-board")
Choice 2: several other people are right ("rave, reviews") and you are wrong.

It's quite possible you are right and the across the board reviewers are wrong. But the onus is on you to demonstrate why you are right. One possibility is this specific DAC is faulty.

Statistically more likely you are wrong and the across the board reviewers are right. In which case, you should start with the assumption that this DAC can not, of itself, degrade your sound. In which case, what is the configuration you have achieved to degrade your sound when using this DAC, rather than blaming it

There's a third possibility. The DAC has actually improved the sound and the sound is a better representation of what is recorded, but you don't like it.

A final possibility is you have the gain structure all wrong or have DSP enabled somewhere in one config and not the other.

I wouldn’t know where to adjust the gain ; the DAC is simplistic.
Would it be in the midi?