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Extreme Snake Oil

Audiofire

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That's where they make their REAL (sucker) money...

Margins on cables is in the near-criminal category. Digital even more-so.
How do you know they are near-criminal? Misleading commercial practices include "the price or the manner in which the price is calculated" and are specifically illegal in the EU (Directive 2005/29/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 May 2005).

Other examples of what is misleading are included in the EU Directive, and I can report the audiophile BS to the Consumer Ombudsman of Denmark.
 
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Audiofire

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Ok, I have for a few years now had Shunyata as the "King" of the snake oil sellers. They represent the worst of the worst. They have it all. Marketing material that is pure rubbish and techno nonsense by the bucket full. I always wish someone with deep pockets could sue them out of existence. Then I foolishly looked at some Audio rags, I mean mags yesterday and saw an ad for Synergistic Speaker Wire I think it was. $28,000 for an 8 foot length. I now have put them at the top tier with Shunyata as both companies need to be hounded out of business. They represent the worst of the audio world. I know I should not be surprised, but I still am at the overwhelming amount of rip off and scam artists that are dominant in the audio industry. Just thought I would mention it today.
Our "hobby" is dominated by low life's, criminals and scammers of the highest order. They are true professionals at their trade.
This thread started with this post, and I'm not sure anybody mentioned the Federal Trade Commission Act. All I had to do was google US misleading marketing practices, not even an American citizen, but I found it that easily. Just like the EU Directive, the Federal Trade Commission of the United States has made this law for suing illegal audiophool companies:

yes, but I tend to follow the 'Judge not lest ye be judged' philosophy. If someone has the money and wants them they should go for it. As long as they don't show up on hi-fi forums claiming that all that extra spend has also bought them extra sound quality :)
The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 of the United Kingdom may also make that philosophy inconsequential.
 

drplinker

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Like I said there’s a limit for everything and if it’s just 1% quality improvement or at least 1% less static noise it’s not entirely worthless. And it’s not just the cable. It’s the connector itself as well.
But isn’t this exactly what audiophiles get the most joy from? Minimal improvement for maximum expenses?
If 5ft of better cable (over whats inside the wall) can improve 1% or 0.5%, then running fancy cable from load/distribution box to equipment should give you huge improvement.
And houses near a power station should have way better audio.
:facepalm:
 

Haflermichi

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"My entire world is crumbling."
That's good. We're here to break down the walls of un-truth.

"I’m not a scientific guy when it comes to music."
You don't have to be. You only have to be willing to become a critical thinker (and consumer) and to absolutely insist on the truth.

"In your eyes still way too much sure, but I could hear a clear improvement in sound quality. Maybe it was just in my imagination."
It was almost certainly your imagination. But this is another good sign. The willingness to change your opinion in the face of new evidence.

"You’ve really invoked my interest now"
Again, good. You're beginning to loosen your fetters and turn around to the light.
Continue your journey out of the cave. Look up Plato's Cave allegory.
We're waiting for you to join us.
 

Sal1950

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Synergistic Research has been mentioned in this thread a number of times and though they don't cost ridiculous amounts of money I find the ECT and GCT "magic dots" to be one of the silliest, unbelievable products on the market. How can anyone with a reasonable mind really fall for these?
Said to even improve the sound of their own audiophile fuses.
I really hope there's no way they can conduct. :eek:

ECT_Instructions_040714A.jpg


GCTStarGroundSmall.jpg
 

Doodski

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Synergistic Research has been mentioned in this thread a number of times and though they don't cost ridiculous amounts of money I find the ECT and GCT "magic dots" to be one of the silliest, unbelievable products on the market. How can anyone with a reasonable mind really fall for these?
Said to even improve the sound of their own audiophile fuses.
I really hope there's no way they can conduct. :eek:

ECT_Instructions_040714A.jpg


GCTStarGroundSmall.jpg
"Unbelievable product", is right for sure. That well off (Or poor suckers.) people have the means and ways to buy this rubbish is startling and that they don't have the basic education to weed them out is absurd.
 

Mart68

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Product description rephrase:

ECT has been engineered to balance close proximity cognitive dissonance in gullible victims significantly improving the sellers profit margin to unprecedented levels.
CAUTION: Turn off intellect and reasoning capacity for at least 30 minutes before purchase.
I'd be wary of using the word 'gullible', it's a little adversarial. You have to bear in mind that the vast majority of people are unaware of how our perception works.

Pretty much any crazy tweak has the possibility to create a placebo effect. If you hear it then why would you doubt yourself?

For my own part I had a long period of being unhappy with the sound quality of my system and replaced equipment, cables, and tried all sorts of daft things. Each time I changed something I perceived that the problem was solved and spent the next couple of hours listening happily.

Then next day I would come to listen to my now sorted system and realise that nothing had changed and the problem persisted.

That went on for a long time before it clicked with me that I was just experiencing the placebo effect over and over. But the reason I became aware of it was because I had a problem to solve. Now if you take someone who already has a fine sounding system and just wants to get an incremental improvement, they don't have that flaw to recognise. They add the snake-oil product to their already wonderful sounding system and placebo makes it sound even better.

Next day when they listen again it still sounds wonderful - because it always did! Consequently they do not receive any prompt that the snake oil product in fact did nothing. You have to cut people some slack with these things.
 

CapMan

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Any views out there on dedicated mains circuits - I ask because during my saddo Naim years it was seen as the great (relatively cheap) upgrade. Split the incoming supply, separate consumer unit (fuse board ) Chunky 32A cable , 1 MCB per cable run to Unswitched socket .

Some folks swapped the standard UK fused plug for 15Amp round pin versions which have no fuse .

On reflection another idiotic thing I did in the interests of an ‘inky black background and cleaner bass’
 

DonR

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Any views out there on dedicated mains circuits - I ask because during my saddo Naim years it was seen as the great (relatively cheap) upgrade. Split the incoming supply, separate consumer unit (fuse board ) Chunky 32A cable , 1 MCB per cable run to Unswitched socket .

Some folks swapped the standard UK fused plug for 15Amp round pin versions which have no fuse .

On reflection another idiotic thing I did in the interests of an ‘inky black background and cleaner bass’
If you had a lot of big, noisy loads like electrical motors (think washer, fridge, freezer, AC, etc.) on the same ring it might help but only if you noticed a problem to begin with. "inky black backgrounds" or "liquid chocolatey mids" will likely not be affected. ;)
 

CapMan

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If you had a lot of big, noisy loads like electrical motors (think washer, fridge, freezer, AC, etc.) on the same ring it might help but only if you noticed a problem to begin with. "inky black backgrounds" or "liquid chocolatey mids" will likely not be affected. ;)
I figured as much :)
 

ta240

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...... the Federal Trade Commission of the United States has made this law for suing illegal audiophool companies:
....

- I doubt that there are employees at the FTC just sitting and hoping someone calls them with a small time violation so they have something to do today. It would be impossible to count all the violations of laws that happen every day and that are ignored because the agency that enforces them are too overwhelmed. Heck, our local police now say they are only going to respond in person if it is a crime in process.

- Who would file the complaint? The customers that buy these cables are largely happy with their purchases.

- Even if someone does file a complaint it is, in the grand scheme of things, a small amount of total money; although admittedly it does seem to be growing exponentially.

- Many times the claims made by the companies are either very limited or vague. Most of the claims are actually from customer reviews. I've heard vitamin/supplement places do that with their radio ads. They play clips of customers calling in and telling them how amazing their products are and the difference it made in their lives, rather than making those claims themselves.

- Can you imagine the parade of experts it would take and how do you convince a judge or jury that you can measure everything that you hear in audio when the other side is telling them you can't? How do you convince them that quick, double blind testing is the proper way when the other side is arguing that sighted, longer term listening is the correct method? "Your honor, I've presented dozens of customers that have testified as to how much improved their system is with these wires and the prosecution just has one guy with some fancy gizmo that nobody understands saying it can't"

And finally, do I really want my tax dollars to be spent trying to save rich idiots from blowing their money on useless stuff?
 

iv0

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Ok, I have for a few years now had Shunyata as the "King" of the snake oil sellers. They represent the worst of the worst. They have it all. Marketing material that is pure rubbish and techno nonsense by the bucket full. I always wish someone with deep pockets could sue them out of existence. Then I foolishly looked at some Audio rags, I mean mags yesterday and saw an ad for Synergistic Speaker Wire I think it was. $28,000 for an 8 foot length. I now have put them at the top tier with Shunyata as both companies need to be hounded out of business. They represent the worst of the audio world. I know I should not be surprised, but I still am at the overwhelming amount of rip off and scam artists that are dominant in the audio industry. Just thought I would mention it today.
Our "hobby" is dominated by low life's, criminals and scammers of the highest order. They are true professionals at their trade.
I have to say I got very good deals on my shunyata cables (150-200€ a piece), but retail is crazy. Maybe looking to sell them and go to 15€ Oehlbach cables. But is kind not worth the effort. I think around 100€ is acceptable craziness. But silly to think it contributes anything to sound, just bragging rights.
 

Audiofire

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- Can you imagine the parade of experts it would take and how do you convince a judge or jury that you can measure everything that you hear in audio when the other side is telling them you can't? How do you convince them that quick, double blind testing is the proper way when the other side is arguing that sighted, longer term listening is the correct method? "Your honor, I've presented dozens of customers that have testified as to how much improved their system is with these wires and the prosecution just has one guy with some fancy gizmo that nobody understands saying it can't"

And finally, do I really want my tax dollars to be spent trying to save rich idiots from blowing their money on useless stuff?
Amir uses loopback testing on his Audio Precision Analyzer during product reviews, this is an understood method by real engineers. Here is a method from Gene (Audioholics) that provides evidence:

The FTC has already stated on their website that testimonials are not evidence in court, I have replied about the same kind of topic I found here by searching:

About your final point, I think that this argument is worth considering:
I'd be wary of using the word 'gullible', it's a little adversarial. You have to bear in mind that the vast majority of people are unaware of how our perception works.
 
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ROOSKIE

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Placebo effect works like a charm when sighted listening comparisons are done.
I'd be wary of using the word 'gullible', it's a little adversarial. You have to bear in mind that the vast majority of people are unaware of how our perception works.

Pretty much any crazy tweak has the possibility to create a placebo effect. If you hear it then why would you doubt yourself?

For my own part I had a long period of being unhappy with the sound quality of my system and replaced equipment, cables, and tried all sorts of daft things. Each time I changed something I perceived that the problem was solved and spent the next couple of hours listening happily.

Then next day I would come to listen to my now sorted system and realise that nothing had changed and the problem persisted.

That went on for a long time before it clicked with me that I was just experiencing the placebo effect over and over. But the reason I became aware of it was because I had a problem to solve. Now if you take someone who already has a fine sounding system and just wants to get an incremental improvement, they don't have that flaw to recognise. They add the snake-oil product to their already wonderful sounding system and placebo makes it sound even better.

Next day when they listen again it still sounds wonderful - because it always did! Consequently they do not receive any prompt that the snake oil product in fact did nothing. You have to cut people some slack with these things.
Hi folks the "Placebo Effect", is when a Placebo has an actual effect, not an imagined effect.
I see this term commonly misused on ASR.
If there indeed was a placebo effect, the sound would actually be changed for the worse or better not imagined to be different. Think about what "effect", means. It is not the proper term here.

If you are given sugar pills(placebo) and your heart rate actually goes down(effect)or your acne actually goes away(effect) that is the, Placebo Effect.
You heart rate could also go up(another effect) or the acne get worse(another effect) or a myriad of effects from the placebo to create the "placebo effect".

You are actually more or less referring to "confirmation bias". That is a perceived change based on expectations and may or may not be real, verfiable, correct or definitive.
It was $20k and you trust expensive things and you imagine that it all sounds better to validate your belief and your purchase.

There is also various types of "attribution error". Very commonly the music does sound better with the new cable so you "attribute", that to the cable rather what is more common in audio - simply paying more or different attention.

In any case the term Placebo Effect is being misused.

-------------------------------------
"confirmation bias, the tendency to process information by looking for, or interpreting, information that is consistent with one's existing beliefs. This biased approach to decision making is largely unintentional and often results in ignoring inconsistent information."
 

ta240

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....The FTC has already stated on their website that testimonials are not evidence in court, I have replied about the same kind of topic I found here by searching:

About your final point, I think that this argument is worth considering:
So who testifies as to if it 'sounds' better, I'm guessing the companies could find some sort of expert; especially considering so many professional reviewers like their products.
They could always bring in Michael Fremer and have him coach the jury on what they are about to hear like he did here. I'm thinking the other attorney should have been fired for letting him do that. But if Micheal Fremer can be an expert witness then bring on Hans Beekhuyzen...

And it still doesn't matter at all because they just won't go after them. It sounds great having FTC regulations against it but it reminds me of how people will get all worked up if someone messes with their mail and say "Tampering with the mail is a FEDERAL OFFENCE". Yeah, good luck getting the feds involved in someone opening your letter illegally. Large distribution mailboxes around here get pried open all the time and emptied, the postal employees basically shrug and go "eh, what are ya gonna do?"

It would probably be easier to get the snake oil people to grow a conscience than to get the feds to respond.
 

Mart68

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Hi folks the "Placebo Effect", is when a Placebo has an actual effect, not an imagined effect.
I see this term commonly misused on ASR.
If there indeed was a placebo effect, the sound would actually be changed for the worse or better not imagined to be different. Think about what "effect", means. It is not the proper term here.

If you are given sugar pills(placebo) and your heart rate actually goes down(effect)or your acne actually goes away(effect) that is the, Placebo Effect.
You heart rate could also go up(another effect) or the acne get worse(another effect) or a myriad of effects from the placebo to create the "placebo effect".

You are actually more or less referring to "confirmation bias". That is a perceived change based on expectations and may or may not be real, verfiable, correct or definitive.
It was $20k and you trust expensive things and you imagine that it all sounds better to validate your belief and your purchase.

There is also various types of "attribution error". Very commonly the music does sound better with the new cable so you "attribute", that to the cable rather what is more common in audio - simply paying more or different attention.

In any case the term Placebo Effect is being misused.

-------------------------------------
"confirmation bias, the tendency to process information by looking for, or interpreting, information that is consistent with one's existing beliefs. This biased approach to decision making is largely unintentional and often results in ignoring inconsistent information."
Thanks - I will try to use the correct term in the future.
 

MarkS

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Hi folks the "Placebo Effect", is when a Placebo has an actual effect, not an imagined effect.
I see this term commonly misused on ASR.
If there indeed was a placebo effect, the sound would actually be changed for the worse or better not imagined to be different. Think about what "effect", means. It is not the proper term here.
Well the term "placebo effect" is generally used in discussions of treatment of purely mental conditions such as depression and anxiety, where the effect is entirely on how the person feels subjectively; nothing physically measurable is involved. See e.g. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2019.00407/full

That would seem to be the same concept as an audiophile reporting that the sound is sbetter with the expensive cable, so I think the term "placebo effect" is appropriate for this.
 
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S

Spkrdctr

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This thread started with this post, and I'm not sure anybody mentioned the Federal Trade Commission Act. All I had to do was google US misleading marketing practices, not even an American citizen, but I found it that easily. Just like the EU Directive, the Federal Trade Commission of the United States has made this law for suing illegal audiophool companies:
I hate to say this but in the USA many Federal agencies are useless. The Federal Trade Commission is one of them. They "pretend" like they will do something for you. But, try calling them up and getting something done. It will never happen.
 
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