• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Constant Beamwidth Transducer (CBT) Speakers

Cbdb2

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
1,562
Likes
1,539
Location
Vancouver
Very nice project there, @gnarly. I’m a bit envious.

My understanding of the tech is that your use of 6 banks of 4 drivers would be more than sufficient to get the full acoustic performance. More of an issue would be the driver spacing, which is too great to create the CBT effect above 4-5 kHz. Plus, assuming the drive units are typical of the breed, they might start to individually beam above 6-8 kHz, which is also something Keele was trying to avoid. Nevertheless, great job.

cheers
His version has 72! Tweeters per side to deal with that.
 

TiFi Speakers

Member
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 15, 2024
Messages
15
Likes
2
Location
EU
It seems that some aspects of living room sound reflections have not yet been fully explained. As a general rule, I have always considered that floor and ceiling reflections are unnecessary or even detrimental to achieving perfect sound at the listening spot. However, there are numerous examples that challenge this belief.

One obvious example is CBT, where part of the sound is directed upwards. Another example, not yet fully explained to me, is the Linkwitz LXMini DIY, which was measured here: https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/linkwitz_lx_mini/ (with Erin comments). The same applies to the TiFi Elf, measured here: https://tifi.ee/en/content/10-elf-spinorama. (In TiFi's assortment, there are other speakers that have a much more ideal sound profile than the Elf. Still, the Elf is preferred in listening sessions with a ratio of 95% vs. 5%. There may be other reasons, but it could also be a difference in the vertical HF reflection profile. But can not prove...) The final aspect to consider is Dolby Atmos. I suspect that there was some non-public research behind the selection of the height dimension. Of course, these are all speculations.

The unexplained part is what makes the audio field so interesting, expect as much the "Everything affects everything" when designing speakers.
 

markus

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
710
Likes
819
In TiFi's assortment, there are other speakers that have a much more ideal sound profile than the Elf. Still, the Elf is preferred in listening sessions with a ratio of 95% vs. 5%. There may be other reasons, but it could also be a difference in the vertical HF reflection profile. But can not prove...
"Easy" to test: Do controlled listening tests with and without a ceiling absorber or reflector.
 

TiFi Speakers

Member
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 15, 2024
Messages
15
Likes
2
Location
EU
Do controlled listening tests with and without a ceiling absorber or reflector.
Thank you for the proposal. You are correct. One of the hints to propose that this is about vertical is the difference in sound in rooms with lower ceiling. There TiFi Elf shines more. But regarding proper double blind test with ceiling absorber I can make a promise. If TiFi Speakers will be as large as Harman - we will do it!
 

gnarly

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 15, 2021
Messages
1,042
Likes
1,479
"Easy" to test: Do controlled listening tests with and without a ceiling absorber or reflector.
I thought CBT's are more about mitigating floor reflections, than ones from the ceiling...
 

Bjorn

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 22, 2017
Messages
1,313
Likes
2,602
Location
Norway
Surprised hos much nonsense is being shared here. The CBT greatly minimizes ceiling reflections. One of its strengths of course.
 

markus

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
710
Likes
819
Thank you for the proposal. You are correct. One of the hints to propose that this is about vertical is the difference in sound in rooms with lower ceiling. There TiFi Elf shines more. But regarding proper double blind test with ceiling absorber I can make a promise. If TiFi Speakers will be as large as Harman - we will do it!
You could mount a reflective panel at the ceiling that can be tilted with two strings. Should be simple to build and effective for a first evaluation.
 

markus

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
710
Likes
819
Surprised hos much nonsense is being shared here. The CBT greatly minimizes ceiling reflections. One of its strengths of course.
Yes it does. As far as I can see, no one has claimed the opposite?
 
Last edited:

TiFi Speakers

Member
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 15, 2024
Messages
15
Likes
2
Location
EU
The CBT greatly minimizes ceiling reflections.
image_2024-04-25_210417456.png
It is best to look what has been discussed and illustrated in Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms, Third Edition, by Floyd E. Toole, page 278 (picture one of seven referred) There is comparison of 7 different types of sound sources compared in vertical axis. So everyone can estimate there the differences, and also think of profiles of some higher frequencies and different loudspeakers. I suppose better characterization is homogenized ceiling reflections (and sound field over frequencies). As for "reduced" it has to be specific comparison.
 

Newman

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
3,537
Likes
4,387
Surprised hos much nonsense is being shared here. The CBT greatly minimizes ceiling reflections. One of its strengths of course.
Ceiling reflection energy is about 5-7 dB below direct energy, and is full bandwidth.
Screenshot 2024-04-26 at 5.26.33 PM.png
Screenshot 2024-04-26 at 5.26.08 PM.png


Compare red vs red responses. Calling that "greatly minimized" is a bit of a leap. See how I refrain from terms like "much nonsense".

Source: Keele, D. B., B&W 801 Matrix Series 3 vs. Audio Artistry CBT36 Ground‐Plane Measurements, 2011
 

markus

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
710
Likes
819
Ceiling reflection energy is about 5-7 dB below direct energy, and is full bandwidth.
View attachment 365939View attachment 365938

Compare red vs red responses. Calling that "greatly minimized" is a bit of a leap. See how I refrain from terms like "much nonsense".

Source: Keele, D. B., B&W 801 Matrix Series 3 vs. Audio Artistry CBT36 Ground‐Plane Measurements, 2011
Psychoacoustically those 5-7dB can be considered "greatly minimized" when it pushes audibility below detection threshold. But yes, Bjorn seems to be a bit frustrated about how others talk about CBT ;)
 

markus

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
710
Likes
819
Last edited:

Bjorn

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 22, 2017
Messages
1,313
Likes
2,602
Location
Norway
Ceiling reflection energy is about 5-7 dB below direct energy, and is full bandwidth.
View attachment 365939View attachment 365938

Compare red vs red responses. Calling that "greatly minimized" is a bit of a leap. See how I refrain from terms like "much nonsense".

Source: Keele, D. B., B&W 801 Matrix Series 3 vs. Audio Artistry CBT36 Ground‐Plane Measurements, 2011
With a normal ceiling it's below 20 dB vs the direct signal with the CBT36. One needs to understand what measurement to look at.
 

markus

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
710
Likes
819
With a normal ceiling it's below 20 dB vs the direct signal with the CBT36. One needs to understand what measurement to look at.
Can you share those measurements that show a wideband 20dB attenuation? Hope you're not referring to anything IR related as this would be highly misleading.
 

Bjorn

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 22, 2017
Messages
1,313
Likes
2,602
Location
Norway
Can you share those measurements that show a wideband 20dB attenuation? Hope you're not referring to anything IR related as this would be highly misleading.
Do you understand what specular reflections in a small room are?

If so, explain why an IR would be misleading when the vertical directivity is constant to 250-300 Hz.
 

markus

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
710
Likes
819
Do you understand what specular reflections in a small room are?

If so, explain why an IR would be misleading when the vertical directivity is constant to 250-300 Hz.
No need to get snappy. IR peaks are dominated by HF. So again, can you please share those measurements?
 
Top Bottom