Audyssey's Next Generation of Room Correction (MultEQ-X)

[KMO]

Before I used the MultiEQX software, the distances measured for the mains were accurate to the last cm.

Yep, I was kind of joking. The error caused by a likely temperature difference is tiny.

The error we're seeing in the Denon corresponds to to 70 degree temperature difference - it's using the speed of sound for -49°C (-56°F)

The 343m/s that MultEQ-X is using is for 20°C (68°F).

If your room temperature is 25°C (77°F), real speed of sound should be 346m/s, which would mean it would report an actual 2.00m as 1.98m. About 1% error for each 5°C away from 20°C.

But as I said, if it was off, due to temperature, you wouldn't want to tweak that to get the reported distance correct - it's the delay that matters.

 

[KMO]

Probably too late to dig into now, but at one point, there was an update to MEQX that seemed to change how the distances translated.

I'm willing to bet this is the sort of knowledge that can be lost due to inadequate documentation and BIG COMMENTS IN THE CODE.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if some versions of Audyssey in the past, including possibly MultEQ Pro, knew about the 300m/s, and knew to report fudged distance values to get the delay right.

But I can imagine some customer bug report that "the distances Audyssey reporsts are wrong", and someone who didn't know the reason looking at it and saying, "wtf - it's using 300m/s for the speed of sound? Of course the distances are wrong. I'll fix that!", thus screwing up the actual delays.

And maybe that knowledge has just been re-discovered?

I think a bit of archeology into what Audyssey versions do is worthwhile, but I'm fairly confident Denon (being a Japanese firm, who are very conservative about this sort of thing, in my experience), will have been leaving that 300m/s untouched due to not wanting to cause confusion. Better a consistent error in every device that can be fully compensated for, than hard-to-probe variation between models and firmware versions.

In particular, fixing it now would screw up all the calibration tools like MultEQ-X that deliberately put in fudged distances.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Yep, I was kind of joking. The error caused by a likely temperature difference is tiny.

The error we're seeing in the Denon corresponds to to 70 degree temperature difference - it's using the speed of sound for -49°C (-56°F)

The 343m/s that MultEQ-X is using is for 20°C (68°F).

If your room temperature is 25°C (77°F), real speed of sound should be 346m/s, which would mean it would report an actual 2.00m as 1.98m. About 1% error for each 5°C away from 20°C.

But as I said, if it was off, due to temperature, you wouldn't want to tweak that to get the reported distance correct - it's the delay that matters.

My comment wasn’t in regard to temp. But thanks anyway for the interesting info.

 

[Dumdum]

I'm willing to bet this is the sort of knowledge that can be lost due to inadequate documentation and BIG COMMENTS IN THE CODE.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if some versions of Audyssey in the past, including possibly MultEQ Pro, knew about the 300m/s, and knew to report fudged distance values to get the delay right.

But I can imagine some customer bug report that "the distances Audyssey reporsts are wrong", and someone who didn't know the reason looking at it and saying, "wtf - it's using 300m/s for the speed of sound? Of course the distances are wrong. I'll fix that!", thus screwing up the actual delays.

And maybe that knowledge has just been re-discovered?

I think a bit of archeology into what Audyssey versions do is worthwhile, but I'm fairly confident Denon (being a Japanese firm, who are very conservative about this sort of thing, in my experience), will have been leaving that 300m/s untouched due to not wanting to cause confusion. Better a consistent error in every device that can be fully compensated for, than hard-to-probe variation between models and firmware versions.

In particular, fixing it now would screw up all the calibration tools like MultEQ-X that deliberately put in fudged distances.

Easy solution if using multeq-x is use delay mode in msec and impulse response with a timing chirp in room eq wizard, it’s just a case of routing audio to individual speakers, rew doesn’t care what the speed of sound setting is, just a reference vs actual time arrival, so it’s easy to do once you have speakers in the correct places

Sure we shouldn’t have to, but needs must, I’d rather spend an extra hr timing the system right than know it may or may not be correct

 

[Reverend Slim]

In particular, fixing it now would screw up all the calibration tools like MultEQ-X that deliberately put in fudged distances.

No, I was saying that the last update to MultEQ-X actually changed how those "fudged distances" came out when sent to the AVR. I had done an EQ run with it before the update and sent to my AVR. After the app updated, I sent the exact same EQ run to my AVR and got slightly different distances, despite the measured distances being the same in the project file. So at some point, Audyssey has slightly tweaked how MultEQ-X fudges those numbers.

Not that we can check it now, because there's no way to roll back to an earlier version of the app.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

No, I was saying that the last update to MultEQ-X actually changed how those "fudged distances" came out when sent to the AVR. I had done an EQ run with it before the update and sent to my AVR. After the app updated, I sent the exact same EQ run to my AVR and got slightly different distances, despite the measured distances being the same in the project file. So at some point, Audyssey has slightly tweaked how MultEQ-X fudges those numbers.

Not that we can check it now, because there's no way to roll back to an earlier version of the app.

Yes and the Audyssey head of development acknowledged that in the JoeNTell interview as far as I remember.

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

How do I interpret these subwoofer measurements? Am I losing bass below 40hz or gaining bass above 40hz?

First is subwoofer measured from listening position. Second is microphone placed a few inches away from the subwoofer driver.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

How do I interpret these subwoofer measurements? Am I losing bass below 40hz or gaining bass above 40hz?

First is subwoofer measured from listening position. Second is microphone placed a few inches away from the subwoofer driver.

View attachment 205972View attachment 205973View attachment 205975

Losing bass below 40Hz. Presumably by room modes. Try different sub positions and see if it improves.

 

[GalZohar]

It looks to me like a combination of some nulls at <=40Hz and large peaks above. The nearfield looks fine down to 20Hz so it's probably not the fault of your subwoofer itself but rather the room.

You should probably analyze the room modes with test tones at the relevant frequencies while walking around the room. What are the room dimensions? Looks like your first major room mode is at 50Hz, but there are less significant ones below 40Hz. Nulls rarely would account for lack of bass at the entire 20-40Hz range, so it's probably mostly just the peaks above 40Hz combined with a few nulls below 40Hz.

If you can, try find a listening position where you will get a better response at the 20-40Hz range. You can listen to test tones to see where the peaks and dips are for each frequency, and try to avoid placing your seat where there are severe peaks/dips, or at least where there are too many of them. Of course you should also take into account the placement of the speakers (and screen), so it ends up being a bit difficult to find a position that works for everything, and you'll have to find the best compromise.

 

[192kbps]

MultEQ
MultEQ XT
MultEQ XT32
MultEQ Pro
MultEQ-X

Too many versions, annoying.

 

[KMO]

MultEQ
MultEQ XT
MultEQ XT32
MultEQ Pro
MultEQ-X

Too many versions, annoying.

Certainly not the clearest naming. So, to clarify, the first 3 are the DSP solutions inside the AVR, which incorporate their own calibration routines. There's currently nothing beyond XT32 as far as I'm aware.

The last two are external calibration software, which can be used to calibrate the DSP solutions better, doing more indepth calculations and with more tweaking possibilities. And how good a job they can do depends on which of the 3 DSP options you have.

 

[Smitty2k1]

Certainly not the clearest naming. So, to clarify, the first 3 are the DSP solutions inside the AVR, which incorporate their own calibration routines. There's currently nothing beyond XT32 as far as I'm aware.

The last two are external calibration software, which can be used to calibrate the DSP solutions better, doing more indepth calculations and with more tweaking possibilities. And how good a job they can do depends on which of the 3 DSP options you have.

And sadly my Marantz amp only supports the basic Audyssey and no external app :-(

 

[Soundmixer]

MultEQ
MultEQ XT
MultEQ XT32
MultEQ Pro
MultEQ-X

Too many versions, annoying.

It's not really that complex. I believe MultEQ is no longer used, but I could be wrong. XT is used in the cheaper AVRs, XT32 is found in mid to high-end Denon/Marantz AVRs, EQ pro is no longer supported but has plenty of kits in the field(I have one). X is the latest computer software version designed to compliment and augment XT32. It is comparable to the Pro kit but has a bit more functionality in the software.

 

[Sonic icons]

It's not really that complex. I believe MultEQ is no longer used, but I could be wrong. XT is used in the cheaper AVRs, XT32 is found in mid to high-end Denon/Marantz AVRs, EQ pro is no longer supported but has plenty of kits in the field(I have one). X is the latest computer software version designed to compliment and augment XT32. It is comparable to the Pro kit but has a bit more functionality in the software.

The three DSP versions internal to AVRs/AVPs, MultEQ, MultEQ XT, and MultEQ XT32, are still used by Denon/Marantz. The following list shows what's in the D/M hardware from the most recent model years.

MultEQ, does NOT support external apps:
Denon AVR-S660H
Marantz NR1510 (slimline)

MultEQ, supports external apps:
Denon AVR-S760H, AVR-S960H
Marantz NR1711 (slimline)

MultEQ XT, supports external apps:
Denon AVR-X1700H, AVR-X2700H
Marantz SR5015

MultEQ XT32, supports external apps:
Denon AVR-X3700H, AVR-X4700H, AVR-X6700H, AVR-X8500HA, AVR-A110 (pricey "10th anniversary" model)
Marantz SR6015, SR7015, SR8015, AV7706 (AVP), AV8805A (AVP)

Also, "MultEQ Editor for Android and iOS" (smartphones, tablets) should be added to the list of external apps.

 

[Sonic icons]

And sadly my Marantz amp only supports the basic Audyssey and no external app :-(

2016 model year or later Denon and Marantz AVRs and AVPs support MultEQ Editor (for Android and iOS) and MultEQ-X (Windows). I think Audyssey did a good job in making their MultiEQ-X app (Nov 2021 +) compatible with 5-year-old hardware ("piggybacking" on the hardware support for the previously released MultEQ Editor).

Here is a summary of all the D/M AVRs and AVPs that support the external apps (let me know if I missed any)
Note the "internal" version of Audyssey, MultEQ, MultEQ XT, or MultEQ XT32, determines the complexity of the FIR filters (the number of "control points") that can be created, even when using one of the external apps, so the internal DSP version is still relevant.

AVRs

Denon S7y0(W or H), S9y0(W or H), with y>=2 (internal version =MultEQ)
Denon X1y00(W or H), X2y00(W or H), with y>=3 (internal version =MultEQ XT)
Denon X3y00(W or H), X4y00H, X6y00H, with y>=3 (internal version =MultEQ XT32)
Denon X8500H, X8500HA, A110 ("flagship" and "10th anniversary" models) (internal version =MultEQ XT32)

(note the letter W or H at the end of the Denon model number indicates absence or presence of a wireless networking feature called HEOS; not relevant to Audyssey)

Marantz NR1607, NR1608, NR1609, NR1710, NR1711 ("slimline" models) (internal version =MultEQ)
Marantz SR501y, with y>=1 (internal version =MultEQ XT)
Marantz SR601y, SR701y, SR801y, with y>=1 (internal version =MultEQ XT32)

AVPs, Marantz only

AV770y, AV880y, with y>=3 (internal version =MultEQ XT32)

 

[Smitty2k1]

2016 model year or later Denon and Marantz AVRs and AVPs support MultEQ Editor (for Android and iOS) and MultEQ-X (Windows). I think Audyssey did a good job in making their MultiEQ-X app (Nov 2021 +) compatible with 5-year-old hardware ("piggybacking" on the hardware support for the previously released MultEQ Editor).

Here is a summary of all the D/M AVRs and AVPs that support the external apps (let me know if I missed any)
Note the "internal" version of Audyssey, MultEQ, MultEQ XT, or MultEQ XT32, determines the complexity of the FIR filters (the number of "control points") that can be created, even when using one of the external apps, so the internal DSP version is still relevant.

AVRs

Denon S7y0(W or H), S9y0(W or H), with y>=2 (internal version =MultEQ)
Denon X1y00(W or H), X2y00(W or H), with y>=3 (internal version =MultEQ XT)
Denon X3y00(W or H), X4y00H, X6y00H, with y>=3 (internal version =MultEQ XT32)
Denon X8500H, X8500HA, A110 ("flagship" and "10th anniversary" models) (internal version =MultEQ XT32)

(note the letter W or H at the end of the Denon model number indicates absence or presence of a wireless networking feature called HEOS; not relevant to Audyssey)

Marantz NR1607, NR1608, NR1609, NR1710, NR1711 ("slimline" models) (internal version =MultEQ)
Marantz SR501y, with y>=1 (internal version =MultEQ XT)
Marantz SR601y, SR701y, SR801y, with y>=1 (internal version =MultEQ XT32)

AVPs, Marantz only

AV770y, AV880y, with y>=3 (internal version =MultEQ XT32)

Yes I have the Marantz NR1509 slim model. It's the 5.2 version of the NR1609 from the same year . For unknown reasons I'm told the 1509 does not support the app.

 

[Chromatischism]

Support began with X1300, X2300, X3300, X4300, and X6300.

Compatible models: (Product availability varies depending on regions.)

Denon AV Receiver: AVR-X6300H, AVR-X4300H, AVR-X3300W, AVR-X2300W, AVR-X1300W, AVR-S920W, AVR-S720W, AVR-S930H, AVR-S730H, AVR-X1400H, AVR-X2400H, AVR-X3400H, AVR-X4400H, AVR-X6400H, AVR-X8500H, AVR-S740H, AVR-S940H, AVR-X1500H, AVR-X2500H, AVR-X3500H, AVR-X4500H, AVR-X6500H, AVR-X1600H, AVR-X2600H, AVR-X3600H, AVR-S750H, AVR-S950H, AVR-A110, AVR-X6700H, AVR-X4700H, AVR-X3700H, AVR-X2700H, AVR-S960H, AVR-X8500HA, AVR-X1700H, AVR-S760H

Marantz AV Receiver: AV7703, SR7011, SR6011, SR5011, NR1607, NR1608, SR5012, SR6012, SR7012, SR8012, AV7704, AV8805, NR1609, SR5013, SR6013, SR7013, AV7705, NR1710, SR5014, S6014, SR8015, SR7015, SR6015, SR5015, NR1711, AV7706, AV8805A

Not compatible with Denon and Marantz models other than those listed above.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Well ... I´ll be damned ... wow ... they really delivered . ... REW support with the latest version (1.1.420.0), which just came in this morning. Unfortunately, I am on my way out, so I cant try it.

 

[Chromatischism]

I guess it's nice if you prefer making filters in other software, but since you can't export your Audyssey measurements to REW, you're not working apples to apples.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I guess it's nice if you prefer making filters in other software, but since you can't export your Audyssey measurements to REW, you're not working apples to apples.

It gives people options and it’s nice they continue to work on the software.