Audiomirror Tubadour III SE thoughts

[Jrizk13]

Good Morning Gentlemen,



I am a novice to the audio world and I wanted to share my experience with a really interesting piece of kit. Full disclosure, I am a cheap ass want the absolute most for my money.



I have experience with Ess sabre and AKM chips and, while they sound great, I am apparently sensitive to glare and harshness on them. Also, I noticed that there was a distinct loss of rhythm or flow. I think you audiophile pros call it musicality.



I started loads or research and decided to take a chance on a DAC that an aquaintance of mine recommended. The Audiomirror Tubadour III SE. It is a NOS R2R DAC based on the famous AD1865n-k chip, supplemented by duelund caps and tube output. Sounded too unscientific and ritzy for my blood but what the hell.



I run a USB to I2S converter ($50 off Amazon) from my PC using audirvana (Qobuz) into the DAC and into a topping pre 90 then off to a parasound power amp.



I am really, really enjoying it. Sound is smooth (almost sweet but not changing the music tone or timbre), detailed, musical, and has good bass. I have been pulling 3 hour long jam sessions when I put the kids down for a nap. Here's the real kicker. Even my bravoTV loving wife sat next to me and said, "that's the best sound I've ever heard.". She doesn't pay attention to any of my audio stuff but, I shit you not, she kicked me out of the man cave to watch the kids while she had an hour long jam session. What The F. Any married guy on here will agree that that is not something that happens normally. We should start a website with a wife noticing scale.



I believe that the ad1865n-k is a special chip and that if it is surrounded by quality parts, it really will treat you well. It's reputation precedes it.



Also, Mr. Vlad, Audiomirror owner, goes above and beyond with customer service. It is important to me to have my emails responded to.



Thank you all for humoring a rookie like me and God Bless.



Kind Regards,



Joe



P.s. Do any of you guys know of any other well built AD1865n-k DACs or maybe tda1541a DACs that are fantastic for their price?

P.p.s. I bet this would measure pretty badly with the old chip and tubes. I wonder if they ever measured a DAC with those chips and what shows up.

 

[RickSanchez]

Glad you're enjoying the sound.

For myself personally I can't imagine buying a device from a company that sells a $160 fuse. I'd rather just spend that amount on a really good DAC.

• https://www.audiomirror.com/product-page/sr-orange-fuse

At its core are new UEF Technologies and a completely new multi-stage high voltage treatment process for the lowest noise floor of any fuse we have ever manufactured. In fact, ORANGE is by far the most significant leap in performance across five fuse generations. Subjective improvements include better timbral accuracy where separate instruments and voices take on a new degree of life-like realism. Other benefits over prior SR fuses include a larger soundstage with greater depth, width, and front-to-back layering. Musicality or the presence of increased detail without a hint of fatigue is off the charts for extended listening that is never harsh despite being our highest resolution fuse to date.

 

[Jrizk13]

You are probably right. Maybe I should have tried a couple more affordable DACs. Are there any other DACs that are not Sabre or AKM that you recommend? I'm always willing to learn and try

Kind Regards,

Joe

 

[RickSanchez]

If you're enjoying your DAC then ... enjoy it! No need to keep experimenting. That being said if you really wanted to invest in SQ you'll hear the same refrain from most people here on ASR (myself included): the biggest bang for your buck is in speakers + room EQ.

Unfortunately I don't have any recommendations on non-Sabre / non-AKM DACs. My primary DAC is a Sabaj D5 which has an ESS ES9038 Pro chip. For me I focus on measurements to see how a given DAC performs overall, so IMO the ultimate performance of a DAC is the result of the implementation and not just what particular DAC chip is used.

This may be useful for you: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_Equipment_Reviews/

 

[Jrizk13]

I agree with you that speakers are most important. I don't think my wife will let me buy any other speakers. I've only seen a couple speaker reviews on here. When you say sound EQ, what do you mean? Like audessey and anthem arc? Or like sound treatments around the rooms? How would I add sound EQ to my system and does it make a large difference?

I apologize for my ignorance.

Kind Regards,
Joe

 

[Jrizk13]

How come some Sabre and AKM DACs would hurt my ears, but the same chip would not in another DAC?

 

[NiagaraPete]

Good Morning Gentlemen,



I am a novice to the audio world and I wanted to share my experience with a really interesting piece of kit. Full disclosure, I am a cheap ass want the absolute most for my money.



I have experience with Ess sabre and AKM chips and, while they sound great, I am apparently sensitive to glare and harshness on them. Also, I noticed that there was a distinct loss of rhythm or flow. I think you audiophile pros call it musicality.



I started loads or research and decided to take a chance on a DAC that an aquaintance of mine recommended. The Audiomirror Tubadour III SE. It is a NOS R2R DAC based on the famous AD1865n-k chip, supplemented by duelund caps and tube output. Sounded too unscientific and ritzy for my blood but what the hell.



I run a USB to I2S converter ($50 off Amazon) from my PC using audirvana (Qobuz) into the DAC and into a topping pre 90 then off to a parasound power amp.



I am really, really enjoying it. Sound is smooth (almost sweet but not changing the music tone or timbre), detailed, musical, and has good bass. I have been pulling 3 hour long jam sessions when I put the kids down for a nap. Here's the real kicker. Even my bravoTV loving wife sat next to me and said, "that's the best sound I've ever heard.". She doesn't pay attention to any of my audio stuff but, I shit you not, she kicked me out of the man cave to watch the kids while she had an hour long jam session. What The F. Any married guy on here will agree that that is not something that happens normally. We should start a website with a wife noticing scale.



I believe that the ad1865n-k is a special chip and that if it is surrounded by quality parts, it really will treat you well. It's reputation precedes it.



Also, Mr. Vlad, Audiomirror owner, goes above and beyond with customer service. It is important to me to have my emails responded to.



Thank you all for humoring a rookie like me and God Bless.



Kind Regards,



Joe



P.s. Do any of you guys know of any other well built AD1865n-k DACs or maybe tda1541a DACs that are fantastic for their price?

P.p.s. I bet this would measure pretty badly with the old chip and tubes. I wonder if they ever measured a DAC with those chips and what shows up.

You say you're cheap but wasted spent 2500 on a DAC with tubes?

 

[Jrizk13]

So tubes are a no no? I was told they add a holographic sound but if that's not correct, I am willing to go try to learn. Maybe it was a waste, isn't that what this community is for, to learn.

 

[RickSanchez]

If you have an AVR for your setup then yes, something like Audyssey will work great for room EQ. As you may know the version of Audyssey that you get with an AVR varies (based on the price of the AVR), but even the base version can go a long way to getting your speakers integrated and optimized for your listening position in the room.

If you don't have an AVR controlling your audio it takes a little more work. One path you could go down:

• REW (free). Amir wrote up some guides on using REW:
  • https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...om-measurement-tutorial-for-dummies-part-1.4/
  • https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...om-measurement-tutorial-for-dummies-part-2.5/
• A calibrated measurement mic, such as the UMIK-1.
• Given your setup -- running audio off your PC -- you could then do software EQ using EqualizerAPO + Peace.

Or you can research adding something like a miniDSP DDRC-24 and using Dirac Live for room EQ, but that would make having a separate DAC redundant.

 

[Jrizk13]

Thank you for the link. I will read that tutorial and see if I can implement it in my system. I appreciate the feedback.

Kind Regards,

Joe

 

[NiagaraPete]

So tubes are a no no? I was told they add a holographic sound but if that's not correct, I am willing to go try to learn. Maybe it was a waste, isn't that what this community is for, to learn.

Tubes are generally thought of as distortion generators. Why anyone thought they'd be a good idea in a DAC I just can't figure.

 

[Jrizk13]

Thank you I will try another DAC without tubes to see what I'm missing! Also does addin EQ to a system deteriorate any of the music quality?

 

[Jrizk13]

So no tubes. What about ladder resistor DACs? I heard they used to be popular and making a comeback?

 

[RickSanchez]

Thank you I will try another DAC without tubes to see what I'm missing! Also does addin EQ to a system deteriorate any of the music quality?

Sort of depends on what you're asking. If you're asking if the audio signal coming out of EQ is a 100% perfect reproduction of the audio signal going in ... the answer is no. Whether that means the signal is "deteriorated" is perhaps a subjective debate.

Regardless, the benefits of room EQ far outweigh any possible degradation of the signal. You want to make the most of your equipment: if you have great equipment + great speakers + high quality source material all of those things combined might still sound bad if you're listening in a bad room, or the speakers are not well-integrated. You can use room EQ to manage the crossover points between your mains and you sub(s), you can even out the frequency response in a challenging room environment, you can even set general preferences in the room eq. (e.g. you might boost the bass levels.) Overall that can have an incredibly significant impact on sound quality. And it's incredibly cheap vs. buying tons of equipment to chase the perfect sound for your room + listening position.

 

[MaxBuck]

So tubes are a no no? I was told they add a holographic sound but if that's not correct, I am willing to go try to learn. Maybe it was a waste, isn't that what this community is for, to learn.

Tubes aren't a "no-no" if you like the way they sound.

No one else can tell you what you should like. Don't over-think this stuff. The AKM and ESS based DACs may be objectively superior to a tubey DAC, but hey, some people love Alfa Romeos, too.

 

[RickSanchez]

How come some Sabre and AKM DACs would hurt my ears, but the same chip would not in another DAC?

It comes down to the overall implementation of the DAC.

Take, for example, the ESS ES9038Q2M chip. By default this chip produces the unfortunate "ESS hump" when you measure IMD vs. level. To be fair, it's questionable to what level this issue is even audible, or would -- in your case -- "hurt your ears". But it's at least possible that it's an audible issue.

Here's the IMD performance of the ES9038Q2M chip in the Khadas Tone Board:

Here's the IMD performance of the ES9038Q2M chip in the Topping D10s:

You can see that the Topping engineering team has done a lot of work in design/dev to tame the "ESS hump" to the point where it is almost non-existent in the D10s. So the same chip -- the ES9038Q2M -- can ultimately have different performance in different DACs depending on how the DAC is engineered. That's why I value the measurements here on ASR because the focus is on the performance of the final product, which is what I'm buying; I'm not buying a stand-alone DAC chip.

 

[Audiophile53]

I concur with Joe, the Tubadour III SE is a wonderful sounding DAC, very musical and non fatiguing. I have other DAC's and the Tubadour is on my main system. I also have the Gustard 26 Pro and although good not as musical as the Tubadour. The Tubadour is just a joy to listen to.

 

[Xulonn]

I concur with Joe, the Tubadour III SE is a wonderful sounding DAC, very musical and non fatiguing. I have other DAC's and the Tubadour is on my main system. I also have the Gustard 26 Pro and although good not as musical as the Tubadour. The Tubadour is just a joy to listen to.

First of all, I see that you joined ASR almost two years ago, indicating that you are more of a reader than a participant at these forums. However, this post - your second one in all that time - tells us that you dont much believe in science, especially the science of psycho-acoustics.

You just told us that you like "colored" (e.g., "distorted") sound and not the neutral, flat frequency response that is the goal of those seeking "high fidelity" or uncolored sound. I base this conclusion on the fact that no one has been able to demonstrate that there are sonic differences between DACs that accurately reproduce higher resolution digital music recordings - unless they know in advance which DAC they are listening to. (This is what "science" and properly controlled blind listening tests tell us, and what informed people who come to a science-based internet audio forum understand to be true.)

I am curious as to why you do not pursue neutral, uncolored audio reproduction. Have you been able to determine what kind and amount of audio signal distortion suits your tastes and provides your preferred audio colorations?

Do you believe that all recorded music is recorded badly in the same manner, and that a fixed correction such as that provided by a DAC that produces distortion and/or uneven frequency response is the best solution? (As opposed to DSP EQ that can be easily manipulated to provide correction for many different - but not all - recording deficiencies.)

 

[Audiophile53]

You just told us that you like "colored" (e.g., "distorted") sound and not the neutral, flat frequency response that is the goal of those seeking "high fidelity" or uncolored sound.

All music reproduction systems are "colored" and psycho-acoustics is a major part of how sound is perceived. In my experience just because one amplifier measures better than another doesn't necessarily mean it sounds better. Why are so many serious music listeners using tube equipment? Are they all nitwits? It is always a compromise between the interaction of components and your room.

Also, I am not a believer in EQ. All the EQ in the world cannot correct a bad room.

 

[Xulonn]

All music reproduction systems are "colored" and psycho-acoustics is a major part of how sound is perceived.

Reduction of "coloration" is the same as seeking "higher-fidelity" in music systems. By definition, that means reducing distortion and achieving a flatter frequency response and sufficient dynamic range. Psychoacoustics is not a "part" of listening, but rather a scientific field that includes the study of the ear-brain interaction, and attempts to learn why what we think we hear is often not actually a linear interpretation of the sound waves striking our tympanic membranes, but rather is often a "distortion" or "re-interpretation" by the brain of the actual sound waves.

In my experience just because one amplifier measures better than another doesn't necessarily mean it sounds better.

Do you define "better" as more realistic or neutral? Or do you have a preference for particular types and levels of distortion? Can you provide evidence that any properly designed amplifier - SS or vacuum tube - with very low distortion and a flat frequency response, an amplifier that is capable of delivering enough current to properly drive the speakers to which it is connected, sounds different from any other amplifier designed to provide the same high-fidelity level and quality of amplification?

Why are so many serious music listeners using tube equipment? Are they all nitwits?

Below is my amplifier - are you calling me a nitwit?

I use an EL34 Class-A PP amplifier for listening to music from digital sources. I have written elsewhere at ASR about why I am into tubes, and why I like my YarLand amplifier. Vacuum tube amplifiers can be quite low in distortion - not as low as SS - but below audibility. However, there are amplifier designers and engineers that prefer to "voice" amplifiers in a way that actually reduces "fidelity", and provides a chosen "sonic coloration" to the amplifier's output. In my case, I prefer a neutral, high-fidelity, low-distortion sonic signature.

It is always a compromise between the interaction of components and your room.

DAPs, Streamers, DACs, preamplifiers, amplifiers don't interact with rooms - that's the realm of loudspeakers.

Also, I am not a believer in EQ. All the EQ in the world cannot correct a bad room.

But yet you attempt to use amplfiers and DACS for EQ - Not the most logical choice!

DSP EQ can greatly improve most acoustically bad rooms, especially when combined with at least a bit of room treatment. Most ASR participants seem to understand that reality, but a few cling to the illogical notion that DSP cannot do what it actually does.

DSP EQ can definitely improve in-room sound a lot more than a distorting DAC or amplifier, an anachronism that seems to be the choice of a few here for modifying the in-room sonic balance of their audio systems.