Audeze lcd-4z thoughts?

[aspillane789]

I just ordered the lcd-4z with a killer deal from a third party vendor.

I was stuck between picking these and the Audeze MM-500. I posted a poll on a Fb group full of mastering engineers, almost all except bob katz voted for the lcd4z over the mm500. I plan on using the 4z for mastering.

The dac I’m using is the smsl m500v2 (not mk2) paired with the spl phonitor 2.

How is the low end, mid range, high end?

*I didn’t see any threads on this forum about the 4z so I thought I would start one.

 

[muslhead]

i owned a pair .... for a short time. Paying that much and getting so little that i liked, made no sense. I sent them back. -Please note, i was not using any form of eq so my dislike was out-of-box sound.

 

[aspillane789]

i owned a pair .... for a short time. Paying that much and getting so little that i liked, made no sense. I sent them back. -Please note, i was not using any form of eq so my dislike was out-of-box sound.

I got it from an individual with a huge discount so if I don’t like it I’ll have to resell it. Many mastering guys praise it for its low distortion and resolution.

Bob katz opinion is most eq suggestions such as auto eq, sonarworks, Dsoniq to be too aggressive for eq’ing (aka more harm than good). Which might be the reason for the split in people’s opinions whether to eq a pair of cans or not.

Here’s his suggestion for the 4z unlike what auto eq suggests…

“Basically try to add upper midrange and highs.... it won't accept much without starting to sound shrill and unnatural, however,” -bob k

“I would say a combination of both. Find the best upper mid/lower treble frequency that the 4Z seems to be lacking (3k, 4k, 5k, 6k), set about a Q of 0.6 or 0.7, and boost a little. Then do a very gentle shelf 15k, 20k or so and boost that a bit. The two will interact. Don't go too far.” -Bob k

I just emailed him again asking if the 1k bump on the 4z should be address or not. Will post his response when he gets back to me.

 

[DVDdoug]

I plan on using the 4z for mastering.

Most pros recommend against headphones as your "main monitors".

But I've collected two somewhat-opposing opinions from Recording Magazine -

This is from "Readers Tapes" where users send-in their recordings for evaluation:

As those of you who have followed this column for any length of time can attest, headphone mixing is one of the big no-no's around these parts. In our humble opinion, headphone mixes do not translate well in the real world, period, end of story. Other than checking for balance issues and the occasional hunting down of little details, they are tools best left for the tracking process.

And this is from a mixing engineer:

Can I mix on headphones?

No. But in all seriousness, headphones can be a secret weapon and it really doesn’t matter what they sound like…

Over time, after constantly listening back to my work from different studios on those headphones I really started to learn them. They became sort of a compass. Wherever I went… It became a pattern for me to reference these headphones to see if what I was hearing was “right”…

I learned them, I knew them, I trusted them. It didn’t matter whether or not I loved them…

So, can you mix on headphones? Probably. I just think you really need to put some time into learning them first…

 

[aspillane789]

Most pros recommend against headphones as your "main monitors".

But I've collected two somewhat-opposing opinions from Recording Magazine -

This is from "Readers Tapes" where users send-in their recordings for evaluation:


And this is from a mixing engineer:

Yes however there’s 2 exceptions to this.

Mastering on headphones is becoming more common. *not the exception..

1. It seems likely that spending a good amount on a good dac/amp/cans and possibly headphone eq for mastering is much better than having subpar monitors in an untreated room. I have asked a few top Me’s and they agree with this sentiment.
A. It would cost me upward of 15k+ to get a mastering quality control room with acoustical treatment.

2. Bob katz has only approved one pair of headphones that he would be comfortable actually mastering in. The Audeze CRBN. Check is most recent article on it. Ofc I can’t afford the CRBN at the moment.

Those 2 reasons should explain why and when it’s appropriate if one has to master on cans.

 

[solderdude]

Yes, you definitely need to correct the upper mids dip. Not as much as shown below but the stock sound is too laid back and would lead to shrill recordings.
A wide Q 4kHz +6dB would probably be enough to get it to sound good.

Seal is not an issue and bass response remains O.K.

The impedance is kind of low (15 ohm) and with 107dB/V not too sensitive either. Weight is high (610 gram)

Very low distortion.

 

[aspillane789]

Yes, you definitely need to correct the upper mids dip. Not as much as shown below but the stock sound is too laid back and would lead to shrill recordings.
A wide Q 4kHz +6dB would probably be enough to get it to sound good.

Seal is not an issue and bass response remains O.K.

The impedance is kind of low (15 ohm) and with 107dB/V not too sensitive either. Weight is high (610 gram)

Very low distortion.

Thanks for this informative feedback. Do you think the slight 1k bump on the 4z needs a eq dip?

 

[solderdude]

I don't think it needs it.
It does seem to help prodive a nice 5dB downwards slope from 20Hz to 1kHz in the final result.
The boost around 4kHz will ensure the clarity of the final result will not sound too forward.
Maybe not even shelf the the upper treble even. This will result in a small lift in that area in the final result which may sound less 'sparkly' in the final result if you do lift it.

For home sound reproduction (or checking the final result) I would also recommend to add a bit of low bass, a warm tilt (opposite of the shown tilt) up to 1kHz and the treble shelf on top of the 4kHz 'filler'.

 

[aspillane789]

I don't think it needs it.
It does seem to help prodive a nice 5dB downwards slope from 20Hz to 1kHz in the final result.
The boost around 4kHz will ensure the clarity of the final result will not sound too forward.
Maybe not even shelf the the upper treble even. This will result in a small lift in that area in the final result which may sound less 'sparkly' in the final result if you do lift it.

For home sound reproduction (or checking the final result) I would also recommend to add a bit of low bass, a warm tilt (opposite of the shown tilt) up to 1kHz and the treble shelf on top of the 4kHz 'filler'.

Definitely will try the tilt if needed. I have had two top tier Me’s mention to not touch the low end on 4z. Bob is one of them. Albeit for whatever reason I’m not sure..

Did I unknowingly figure out the discrepancy about the no headphone eq vs headphone eq war?

In a sense that it appears most Mastering guys suggest those auto eq or sonarworks profiles are too aggressive..

He sent me his custom lcd 5 profile I’m happy to share with you guys.

Maybe we shouldn’t just assume auto eq is doing more good than harm ‍. Perhaps I should make another post on headphone eq’ing.

*update 1: now that I think about it when I blindly trust auto eq I tend to feel something is lost after the eq’ing

 

[solderdude]

EQ is always based on some average measurement(s) against some standard. Your ears, very likely, do not adhere to industry standard(s) below 100Hz and above several kHz.

When you EQ the bass up during mixing (Harman or Sonarworks) you end up with 'lean' sounding mixes.
The bass 'lift' in reproduction (speaker in a room or with headphones the Harman bass lift) will kind of undo this.
When you do not EQ in the 'agressive' bass lift during mastering (not during final check, there you would need to) you end up with a warmer/fuller sounding result.

Myself, liking the nearfield sound over 'speakers in a room' sound also do not apply the typical Harman target... but that's just me and a minority of listeners.

The Audeze's, once EQ'ed, sound great and keep doing so even at impressively loud levels.

 

[pierre]

EQ is always based on some average measurement(s) against some standard. Your ears, very likely, do not adhere to industry standard(s) below 100Hz and above several kHz.

When you EQ the bass up during mixing (Harman or Sonarworks) you end up with 'lean' sounding mixes.
The bass 'lift' in reproduction (speaker in a room or with headphones the Harman bass lift) will kind of undo this.
When you do not EQ in the 'agressive' bass lift during mastering (not during final check, there you would need to) you end up with a warmer/fuller sounding result.

Myself, liking the nearfield sound over 'speakers in a room' sound also do not apply the typical Harman target... but that's just me and a minority of listeners.

The Audeze's, once EQ'ed, sound great and keep doing so even at impressively loud levels.

I agree. On the other hand, I do not hear a lot of differences between the various open large headphones from Audeze after EQ.
I kept a much cheaper one and added EQ and I am happy.

 

[solderdude]

Yes, All open Audeze sound very similar. I do find the treble in the higher priced ones generally to sound a little better.

The same is true for a lot of the Hifiman models, certainly the similar shaped ones.

Audeze and hifiman, however, have a different 'house sound'. Both are 'neutral' with a dip in the 1-6kHz range. Hifiman has a bit more upper treble and some peaking in the sharpness region which Audeze does not have.

 

[splitting_ears]

Hey, fellow mastering engineer here. I "only" have a LCD-X 2021 but have been experimenting a lot with EQ.
The best starting point I found so far is the one shared here by KaiS. I have tweaked it a little bit and now I feel very comfortable with it.

Oratory's or Amir's EQ were very off, especially in the high end. I didn't try AutoEQ yet, but I'm generally sceptical of approaches that try to fix every little deviation. I much prefer to use fewer bands.
I also have chosen to boost the bass quite a lot, as many mixes I receive need a bit of attention there. If there's something wrong with the subs I just can't miss it now. However, I can understand that depends on personal preferences and habits.

Oh and this RME video is also quite good if you need another perspective on the subject.

Hope that helps!