Advice needed please: iTunes alternative offering AirPort output

[oldmankensey]

Hi all,
Long time reader, first time poster.
I've put (hopefully!) my system in the signature below, but essentially I am looking for advice and suggestions on how to sustain a "multi-room" system with all the music stored centrally, and controlled via mobile app/remote.

Background: Previously I held all music (ALAC files, about 2tb, 99% of them @ 16/44 CD quality) on a 2.5" SSD in a Macbook, running iTunes. This then conveniently allowed me to select an output option to one of several Airport Expresses (802.11n Gen 1, A1264) throughout the house. This was capable of doing multiple rooms at once, but invariably I only listened in one location. The ability to choose where the music was playing, whilst only having one set of files, was essential. I liked not having to set up a server, and just having the simplicity of the files stored on that one Macbook.
Then, to control the system without having to have the Macbook open in front of me, I decided to get an old Mac Mini (the last gen that could be user-upgraded easily (A1347, late 2012), again running iTunes but this time controlled on an Android phone using a remote app called Retune, which I found did not connect as quickly as I would like at times.

Current situation: Now I have a small fanless PC, Mele Quieter 3C, with a 2tb NVME drive inside, and would like this to replace the Mac Mini. At present, it has Windows 11 installed and therefore can run iTunes for Windows and that can output to the multiple Airport Expresses around the house. To control it, I would again presumably use the Retune app as I would like to have the PC running headless next to the DAC in my main living room system. (Therefore this is the same setup, but with a small Windows PC replacing the Mac Mini [for size reasons mostly])

Advice for "improvements" please: I'd love to hear the experience of members on how I can "improve" this set up, but by this I mean from a functionality point-of-view, not sonically. I think I'm totally on board with the core beliefs/findings/research/preferences of ASR in that speakers are important, expensive cables are snake oil or jewellry best, DACs shouldn't "colour" the music, etc etc. I do absolutely appreciate the benefit of room and general EQ but this is not something that I am after at the moment - for me, I just want to listen to the music and 16/44 and iTunes and Airport Express has been absolutely fine for me (I can't distinguish between players I've tried in the past, and if all I want is for the 1s and 0s to get to the DAC). I'd also say that I am absolutely content with the music I have and have no desire whatsoever for any streaming (or movie) functunalilty, nor linking up with vinyl or any such ;-) So the questions are:

1. If I keep using iTunes, is there a better remote app to use on Android?
2. Is there a better software player than iTunes that also allows OUTPUT to Airport Express simply? (and by better, I leave that open ended but again EQ is not a priority for me)
3. If 1. and 2. are NO, what would be a good way of setting up a new system that would allow me to keep files centrally (ie On the Mele Quieter fanless PC) and have them playing at different locations?

I would ideally like to keep the Windows 11 on the Mele PC but would certainly contemplate using an image of say Volumio. I could I suppose replace the Airport Expresses with Rasperry Pis perhaps, but would like the cost of all of this to be as close to £0.00 as possible. I am totally open to maintaining the same system as I have as that is fine, apart from really the app being a bit clunky and unresponsive, but I would be open to suggestions.

Thanks in advance; I tried to give as much context as I can and hope it wasn't too long!

Regards,
Andrew

 

[DavidM1]

The only suggestion that springs to mind is the Apple Remote app that pairs with iTunes. It accesses media libraries on your system. Having typed that I realised you’ve moved into the world of PCs so this is probably not accessible. Good luck with it.

 

[Vincent Kars]

ad 2: You need Airplay on the PC to stream to an Airport. Wonder if players like Musicbee or Foobar can be made Airplay aware. Maybe iTunes on the PC can.

ad 3: In the PC world streaming is typically done using UPnP/DLNA. You might have a look at the Raspberry Pi or a WiiM

 

[amirm]

Roon supports Airplay on Windows. And of course has rich clients on multiple platforms for control and playback.

 

[oldmankensey]

Dear @amirm @DavidM1 and @Vincent Kars
Thank you so much for your responses, I very much value the community here and their attitude and knowledge.

I suppose I am in a situation whereby I know that my setup works fine (for me!) but was pondering whether I am missing a trick...

The consideration would be then, really, would I gain anything by setting up a Room or other DLNA server when it works fine using iTunes and Airport Expresses (again, for me, not using hi-res or EQ)? I think the answer is probably know given what I want, but I am open to suggestions if say Roon would open up a whole new world for me?

A side thought, and this is quite specific question, is: Does iTunes on Windows allow for "bit-perfect" playback? I believe it does on a native Apple Mac environment, but is the same true on Windows 11? (I am extremely dubious I could tell the difference, it is always plenty good enough for me anyway, but if I learned it didn't that might irrationally lessen my enjoyment and I'd be more inclined for a different solution)

Thanks again
Andrew

 

[Vincent Kars]

To the best of my knowledge iTunes is not bit perfect on both platforms.
On OSX you need a player like Audirvana, on Win any player supporting WASAPI in Exclusive mode e.g. Musicbee, Foobar.

Both operating systems support multiple audio streams. As you can send only 1 stream to DAC, there is a default setting. All audio will be resampled if needed. All streams will be mixed even if only 1 stream is running. This means converting to float, mix, dither and convert back to integer.
With a 16 bit DAC (or if you are stupid enough to set de default bit depth to 16), the dither will be applied to bit 16 (-96 dBFS).
With a 24 bit DAC, the dither will be applied to bit 24 (-144 dBFS). This is way below the noise floor of the playback chain.
The same happens if you use any kind of DSP like volume control. The result will be dithered.
That is the reason why I always advice to set the default bit depth to 24 or higher. It is the arithmetic precision of the data path between PC and DAC.

The monument the app get a exclusive lock (hog mode in OSX, using WASAPI in Exclusive mode in Win) only 1 stream will play (that is why I love Exclusive mode, no system sounds over the stereo....). No need to resample, no need to dither. The whole OS audio stack is bypassed.
Bit more detail: https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/WASAPI.htm

 

[Apesbrain]

@oldmankensey , what is your goal in switching from the Mac Mini to the Win PC? Knowing this might allow more useful suggestions.

There's no harm in setting up the Win PC in parallel with the Mac and testing whether it works as you expect. iTunes streaming music to those old AEX units is supposed to be "bit-perfect" over S/PDIF connection to external DAC. It wouldn't surprise me, however, to learn that those AEX have a 16/44 upper limit.

 

[oldmankensey]

@oldmankensey , what is your goal in switching from the Mac Mini to the Win PC? Knowing this might allow more useful suggestions.

There's no harm in setting up the Win PC in parallel with the Mac and testing whether it works as you expect. iTunes streaming music to those old AEX units is supposed to be "bit-perfect" over S/PDIF connection to external DAC. It wouldn't surprise me, however, to learn that those AEX have a 16/44 upper limit.

That's a good question @Apesbrain , and I'm not entirely sure my self! To be certain though, it has NOTHING to do with sound quality (to my ears) - the output from iTunes on Mac via the AEX is totally fine. It is more an "aesthetic" thing in that I like the smaller size of the Mele 3C over the Mac Mini, and also then because using Android phones I was not entirely satisfied with the app I was using as a remote ("Retune"). I suppose if I had a better remote app then to me I would be perfectly happy simply using iTunes, whether in an Apple or Windows environment (although it would be Windows as I want to use the Mele 3C, but could install a form of Linux on that)

In theory I could set up a new system perhaps using say Roon with various outputs, or utilize a few RPi 3 or 4s running Volumio or such, but I think it would be simpler if I either had a better remote app on Android to control iTunes, or if there was a better software music player that could also output to the Airport Expresses? (I have searched in vain for the latter, it doesn't appear any do it "natively" [say Foobar for instance] but there may be third party plugins?)

 

[Vincent Kars]

You might have a look into UPnP/DLNA as an alternative to Airplay.
The moment you activate Windows Media Sharing on your Mele, you have a certified DLNA server in your LAN.
On Android run a UPnP control point e.g. BubbleUPnP.
Have various renderers in you network. Can be an RPi. You might also have a look at WiiM mini as a low cost renderer. As you do have decent DAC's, you don't need more than a digital transport.

 

[Apesbrain]

if I either had a better remote app on Android to control iTunes

You could buy a small iPad to use for controlling your server. iTunes Remote would be the app to install:

‎iTunes Remote

‎iTunes Remote is the best way to control Apple Music, iTunes, or the Apple TV app from anywhere in your home. Simply download the app to your iPhone or iPad, and connect directly to Apple Music, iTunes, or the Apple TV app on your Mac or PC. With iTunes Remote you can: • Access your Apple...

apps.apple.com

If you switched your server platform to Windows, I'd suggest you run Lyrion Music Server and use Raspberry Pi units running piCorePlayer.

 

[linuxfan]

oldmankensey, I agree with many of the ideas suggested so far, but let me take a broad look at your situation;

It appears that you are using iTunes/Apple Music to acquire locally stored music. That's fine, stick with Apple Music then.
If you were invested in using the Apple Music app on other Apple devices to access (or control) this local music, it's almost certainly best to stick with Apple Music as music player/server ... but it appears that you are happy to forego the "Apple ecosystem" - so I suggest to not use iTunes for player/server, instead use either Lyrion or DLNA as the back end. (Lyrion would allow you to use the well-regarded user interface "Material Skin").
You might be wondering how a non-iTunes server application can access an iTunes music library - easy, provided the iTunes preferences are set for "Keep iTunes Media folder organized" (refer attached image)
Then Lyrion or DLNA can simply be configured to access the directory which holds your iTunes music library. In Windows it's C:\Users\<username>\Music\iTunes\

Now replace your AirPort Express(es) with WiiM Pro. I suggest WiiM Pro (US$150) over WiiM Mini (US$100) because the Pro version has native rendering support for Lyrion as well as DLNA, while the Mini only supports DLNA ...
then again, if you really want to save $50 you can configure Lyrion to adapt/convert its output stream to DLNA stream protocol, then you can have Lyrion + WiiM Mini.

 

[linuxfan]

Oh, if you prefer a Raspberry Pi as endpoint instead of WiiM, IMO the 2 most suitable distributions for Lyrion support are piCorePlayer and DietPi.
Be aware that the cost of rPi + power supply + case is only slightly less than a WiiM Mini.

 

[oldmankensey]

Thank you all! A prime example of the helpfulness of this forum, much appreciated.
The main reason for using iTunes would overwhelmingly be to maintain using the Airport Expresses. It appears noone is familiar with any player/distribution that does allow output to them, outside of the Apple environment or perhaps using the Airfoil software?
As far as the remote app, @Apesbrain I think that is the best solution to use an old "i- device". I did have a couple but the battery was exhausted so maybe a cheap second hand one not-too-old would be in order.

I think I would be minded in the future to use a DNLA and upnp setup, and I will investigate the Lyrion distribution. For films I have utilised rPis and run servers using Ubuntu so I think this would be within my grasp. I am also aware of the glowing reviews of the WiiM gear. It would, however, mean spending a bit of money and at this exact moment I'm not going to do that, but it may be on the horizon (or I could re-purpose some existing rPi I have, after I read up whether there actually is jitter/noise on the 3+ or whether this was a nasty rumour -.i know there is at least one thread on that here)

Again, @Apesbrain , @Vincent Kars and @linuxfan - thank you

 

[linuxfan]

I could re-purpose some existing rPi I have, after I read up whether there actually is jitter/noise on the 3+

I have been following rPi development since 2016 and I believe concerns about jitter related specifically to I2S output, and thus rPi "hat-DAC's". USB-audio output should be unaffected, since USB-audio is re-clocked at the USB decoding chip in your (external) DAC. The rPi 3+ is perfectly fine as an audio playback device, and it doesn't require special thermal management like the model 4 & 5.

The main reason for using iTunes would overwhelmingly be to maintain using the Airport Expresses.

Well I still encourage you to eventually aim for a rPi or WiiM ... but as a step towards that - you could set up Lyrion with the "AirPlay bridge" plugin. It's a 3rd-party plugin which can be installed and activated from the Lyrion advanced menu - I just installed this plugin now with my own LMS installation, but I don't have an AirPlay device to test with. I have attached a screenshot of the relevant part of the advanced menu.

 

[oldmankensey]

Hi @linuxfan , I will certainly take the time to check that out then and see how the airplay plugin works. You are of course right and ultimately I will move to (likely) a RPi solution - at the moment I am in a transition between a (old and somewhat outdated) system that still works, and a newer shinier one!
May I ask, what would you say would be your main reason for recommending the Lyrion and WiiM/RPi setup? Is it ease of use, or support, or...?

It is interesting what you say about the thermals of the RPi 4/5 - I believe I had also read that about the 4 once but I would have thought (as a guess) that the 4 would run cooler than the 3 because it is more capable so would be working less (not that basic audio playback should be taxing any system really, or is only if say EQ is used that taxes the processor?)

Thanks as always

 

[linuxfan]

what would you say would be your main reason for recommending the Lyrion and WiiM/RPi setup?

Quite simply, the user interfaces that are available for Lyrion are, arguably, the best around. There are dedicated iOS and Android control apps for Lyrion which are all well regarded, but (arguably) the best control interface is the browser-based "Material Skin".
Roon is supposed to be a very good user interface, but I don't like its subscription price.
DLNA is probably just as good a server as Lyrion, technically, but I have never seen a DLNA control app that I was completely happy with.

Regarding rPi/WiiM - these are the most affordable, yet still good quality, streaming endpoints. If you are just streaming a local music library, I consider the rPi and WiiM equally good, but for anyone wishing to use the commercial streaming services I would lean towards WiiM, since WiiM will get access to any new streaming features soon after they emerge, while rPi must wait for open source software to catch up with such features.
I would be just as happy to own a BlueSound NODE or Eversolo, but I'm not so happy to pay their ticket prices!

 

[oldmankensey]

Again, that's a top answer @linuxfan , sort of common sense and clarity that needs to be pinned, cheers.
On a personal note I don't use any streaming services and only want to play local files I already own. I'd agree with you that the extra initial cost (not actually that much considering possible need for cases/cables/cards) of WiiM over rPi is probably worth it for the extra support it has, and it's easy to see why so many enthuse over it.