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200th Anniversary of Beethoven's 9th

Keith_W

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The 200th anniversary of Beethoven's 9th Symphony is coming up on the 7th of May. Everybody who listens to music knows this piece, even non-classical listeners. It is the anthem of the E.U, has been sung in soccer stadiums, was used as Nazi propaganda, and was even used by Chairman Mao. It is without doubt one of the most influential pieces of music ever written. I normally find classical music which has transcended the divide and become popular to be incredibly grating because it is played too often (e.g. Pachelbel's Canon, Vivaldi Four Seasons, etc) but not the 9th Symphony, and especially not the first 3 movements which have not become popular sound bites.

So I thought that it would be fitting if we celebrate it on ASR. What are your favourite recordings, and why?


Wilhelm Furtwangler, Berlin PO 1942. IMO this is THE pinnacle of all recordings of the 9th. The performance has white hot intensity, full of torment and anger, and the 4th movement is even more uplifting than usual. One wonders what the Nazis in the audience thought of it. For me, this performance does not speak of German nationalism or German pride. It speaks of the suffering of the German people. So yes there are huge Swastikas seen in the video, but I feel that the sentiment of the music is "look what you have done to us". The recording quality is poor. There are various remasters but none of them reach an acceptable standard - all of them have no lows, no highs, suffer from severe clipping along with surface noise. IMO these are best heard on Bluetooth speakers, the flaws are not so grating that way.


Arturo Toscanini, NBC SO 1952. Toscanini's tempi is no less brisk than Furtwangler, but it has an inexorable quality as if you are being driven, willing or not, to the conclusion. A bit like being a helpless passenger in a crashing airplane. It is typical for audiophiles to think that clarity comes from the recording and mixing engineer, and technical factors such as dynamic range, resolution, and so on. This recording shows this thinking is wrong - the conductor is even more important. There are no extant Toscanini recordings which sound acceptable, yet the clarity of the performance is evident. Getting your orchestra to play together with proper spacing between notes, with transients at the right volume is what creates the clarity, and Toscanini was a master at this.


Erich Kleiber, Vienna PO 1952. This is a less frenetic take on the 9th than Toscanini or Furtwangler and sounds notably more spacious. It is weighty, meticulous, and has a certain gravitas. I just love the tone colours Kleiber is able to achieve. Kleiber tends to be forgotten these days so it's a real pity.

Why no modern recordings? I don't find them particularly convincing. Would love to hear your suggestions and why.
 

olieb

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Nice to see a thread that is about music and not gear.
Why no modern recordings? I don't find them particularly convincing.
I will not give any specific recommendations as the 9th is not my favorite in Beethoven's symphonies. But I have the impression that the preference for these historic ones stems in no small amount from the possibility to inject "ideas" into music and interpretation, especially in the case of the 9th.
Example:
So yes there are huge Swastikas seen in the video, but I feel that the sentiment of the music is "look what you have done to us".
Well I cannot see it in the least like that.
Furtwängler plays Beethoven in Wagner's tradition of more or less doing what he wants in the interpretation to cultivate heroism and genius (not least his own of course).
For me this recurring - aside from the historical situation - brings a lot of "Furtwängler" and not so much "Beethoven".
This is very well done of course.

Toscanini is and was a star maestro too, but from a different tradition and much closer to the music, but for me the Kleiber recording will bring you by far the most "Beethoven" of the three.

The 9th (and 3rd-7th too) was loaded with so much Beethoven-Cult that the interpretation history since was characterized to a big part by the deconstruction of this cult to dig back to the music Beethoven actually wrote. Many consider that as taking away the due gravity and grandeur and consider the results as "light" versions lacking convincing.
I like these swift and colorful interpretations with less bombast more and more.
 
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Keith_W

Keith_W

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Nice to see a thread that is about music and not gear.

I can try to turn it back to being about gear ;)

The 9th (and 3rd-7th too) was loaded with so much Beethoven-Cult that the interpretation history since was characterized to a big part by the deconstruction of this cult to dig back to the music Beethoven actually wrote. Many consider that as taking away the due gravity and grandeur and consider the results as "light" versions lacking convincing.
I like these swift and colorful interpretations with less bombast more and more.

You are probably right, more modern recordings are more about authenticity and following the composer's intentions than individual interpretation. I think that's a cult too. Mahler said "tradition is slovenliness" and went as far as telling people to rewrite his music if they felt it has lost its relevance. But then this modern obsession with "composer intention" has lead to a bland sameness. It's like walking down a street full of ice cream vendors selling only vanilla ice cream.
 

FrantzM

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I can try to turn it back to being about gear ;)



You are probably right, more modern recordings are more about authenticity and following the composer's intentions than individual interpretation. I think that's a cult too. Mahler said "tradition is slovenliness" and went as far as telling people to rewrite his music if they felt it has lost its relevance. But then this modern obsession with "composer intention" has lead to a bland sameness. It's like walking down a street full of ice cream vendors selling only vanilla ice cream.
Healthy debate that ...
Should we follow Mahler and re-write his music? If we were to do that to all forms of art, we would be left with not much be recognized or recognized... OTOH, Pushing the boundaries, enable progress. Balance and co-existence (as in anything) between the differing views is best. IOW sticking to the (supposed) intention of the composer has its place as well as moving away from it... to a certain extent .. Balance...

Peace.
 

Puddingbuks

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What “version” of the 9th is best in terms of musical performance and recording quality?
 

Sokel

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What “version” of the 9th is best in terms of musical performance and recording quality?
Otto Klemperer A Nordmo-Lovberg ,Hans Hotter,Philharmonia (1957 )


(not the YT version of course)
 
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LTig

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This one, just because it was the very first CD I bought in 1985.

 
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Keith_W

Keith_W

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Otto Klemperer A Nordmo-Lovberg ,Hans Hotter,Philharmonia (1957 )

There is a story about Otto Klemperer going shopping in a record shop. He was famously stern and stony. This is what he looks like:

1714835005964.png


There are no pictures of him smiling. After a bit of a google search, this is the closest I could find:

1714835077295.png


Anyway, he was recording for Vox and he complained to the music director George Mendelssohn (grandson of the composer) that his records aren't for sale. Mendelssohn said "that can't be, I will take you to the largest record shop in town".

They arrived at the record shop and could not find any Klemperer recordings. He said to the salesgirl, "do you have any recordings by Klemperer". She said "No, but we have Furtwangler, Toscanini, and Walter. Why would you want to listen to Klemperer for, he is so stodgy".

Klemperer raised his eyebrows and said "I am Otto Klemperer"

The girl replied: "yeah right, and that guy next to you must be Beethoven".

"NO! He is Mendelssohn!"

He famously conducted sitting on a stool smoking his pipe and glaring at the terrified musicians. Really old school. They don't make them like him any more :) And yes, I am a bit of a Klemperer fan.
 

FrantzM

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Down the centuries, composers have drawn inspiration from others. It was common to label these as "variations", and sometimes the source material was obvious and sometimes it was not.

For instance, is it heretical for jazz musicians to "re-write" classical pieces? After all, as Duke Ellington said (several times), "If it sounds good, it is good". Can we not enjoy their contributions and still preserve the dot and letter of the originals, should we so desire?

See Jacob Koller's jazzy piano rendition of the "Ode to Joy", Jacques Loussier's work on Bach, Beets' take on Chopin's Prelude in E-minor, and yes, even Mahler :) by Uri Caine.

Jim
Hi @Jim Taylor ...

That doesn't seem the tenor of my post when taken in its entirety...
Healthy debate that ...
Should we follow Mahler and re-write his music? If we were to do that to all forms of art, we would be left with not much be recognized or recognized... OTOH, Pushing the boundaries, enable progress. Balance and co-existence (as in anything) between the differing views is best. IOW sticking to the (supposed) intention of the composer has its place as well as moving away from it... to a certain extent .. Balance...

Peace.


Peace
 

Jim Taylor

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Hi @Jim Taylor ...

That doesn't seem the tenor of my post when taken in its entirety...



Peace

I apologize for not being clear. I was not posting to criticize your ideas, but rather to use your post as a jumping-off point, to expand on the idea that you introduced. As such, my question was rhetorical, and aimed not at you but generally at people reading this thread. :)

I will delete my post in order to not cause confusion.

Jim
 
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FrantzM

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I apologize for not being clear. I was not posting to criticize your ideas, but rather to use your post as a jumping-off point, to expand on the idea that you introduced. As such, my question was rhetorical, and aimed not at you but generally at people reading this thread. :)

I will delete my post in order to not cause confusion.

Jim
No need to delete your post. There was no malice nor offense.. as a matter of fact, I posted to underline that taken our point of views were the same would the post be viewed n its entirety ....
For some odd reasons, I never pause to realize that the 9th is "only" 200 years old... :)

Will have a listen today.. Any favorite?

Peace.
 

ShadowFiend

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My favorite:
1. Furtwangler, Berlin PO LIVE 1942 on Wilhelm Furtwängler: The Radio Recordings 1939-1945 SACD sets issued by Berlin PO. Best transfers from original magnetic tape reels
2. Klemperer, Philharmonia Orchestra LIVE 15.11.1957 on Testament (transfer from BBC's tape): better than the stoic studio version, especially on 2nd movement.
3. Toscanini NBCSO 1952 (RCA).
4. Furtwangler, Philharmonia Orchestra, LIVE 1954 on Tahra SACD, completely another dimension compared to the 1942 performance.
5. von Karajan, Berlin PO 1963 on Deutsche Grammophone.

Some other are also good, like Wand (RCA), Fricsay (DG), Cluytens (EMI), Abbado (DG), Szell (BMG) but they are more middle of the road, and not truly offer something special.
Too bad Carlos Kleiber never conducts this piece. He was the best conductor for Beethoven music from 1970 onwards.
 
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Keith_W

Keith_W

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Too bad Carlos Kleiber never conducts this piece. He was the best conductor for Beethoven music from 1970 onwards.

I read somewhere that he said he could not exceed his father, so he backed out of the contest. I posted Erich Kleiber's performance in the first post.
 

jhaider

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Speaking of rewriting music…my favorite, possibly more for personal reasons than because of performance or recording quality, is the “Ode an der Freiheit” conducted by Bernstein on Xmas 1989 with a bespoke ensemble of “Ossis” and “Wessis” to celebrate the fall of the Berlin Wall.

 

ShadowFiend

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I read somewhere that he said he could not exceed his father, so he backed out of the contest. I posted Erich Kleiber's performance in the first post.
Yes, I read it too, but wonder it is really a real reason or just an excuse for his "laziness". We all know that as soon as he got a recognition, he reduced his workload to minimum amount and simply just enjoyed his life.
 

rcstevensonaz

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It's like walking down a street full of ice cream vendors selling only vanilla ice cream.
As someone who always tries the vanilla first at any new ice cream shop, I'm OK with a street full of vendors only selling vanilla! :cool:
 
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