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Why do you think a few members have an 'alcoholic anonymous' vibe towards the audiophile community? It seems a harmless hobby as far as things go?

Robin L

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I don't think those analogue purists care one jot about those steps... as long as the steps are analogue (or indeed ultra analogue). Anyway, enough of arguing their case for them.

On the subject of original master tapes, though. Most of the ones MoFi are accessing have probably been back and forward across the Atlantic half a dozen times (can't let the US or UK have anything from a copy master, oh no), to MFSL as they were then, to Analogue Productions, probably to a few other specialist companies, had a few years of substandard storage, etc.etc.

A second generation copy that went to Germany or Italy, was used once and then stored safely for the intervening time - if one exists - is quite possibly of better quality than the original by now. I had a couple of good sounding Italian pressings back from the early 1990s that were definitely from copy masters. In fact it was MoFi that promoted the idea that all cuts from copy masters were inferior by definition, and maybe that's always been only a part-truth.

And certainly, most of the releases from MoFi now they did on SACDs back around 2000, and those DSD transfers are probably on their shelves and likely to be better than ones from the original tapes after another 20 years.

Can I suggest that using master tapes is now only their business model, and not always the best source they have, without getting my head bitten off?
I had a Dutch copy of "Abbey Road". Sonically, it was the best I encountered (also had a tizzy sounding Japanese copy on pristine vinyl). However, the tail end of "She's So Heavy" was faded out and "Her Majesty" was excised. I suspect Netherlands EMI was working from some sort of copy, but I can't be sure. Didn't change the fact that top to bottom, this copy had the best balances overall and the most silent surfaces. My only experience with MoFi Beatles was of "Magical Mystery Tour", happened to be of the Capitol version, with the gawdaful reprocessed stereo of that US version. This was issued well after the German EMI edition, with the superb George Martin stereo mix, which I already owned. It was about that time I gave up on MoFi.
 
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Galliardist

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I had a Dutch copy of "Abbey Road". Sonically, it was the best I encountered (also had a tizzy sounding Japanese copy on pristine vinyl). However, the tail end of "She's So Heavy" was faded out and "Her Majesty" was excised. I suspect Netherlands EMI was working from some sort of copy, but I can't be sure. Didn't change the fact that top to bottom, this copy had the best balances overall and the most silent surfaces. My only experience with MoFi Beatles was of "Magical Mystery Tour", happened to be of the Capitol version, with the gawdaful reprocessed stereo of that US version. This issued was well after the German EMI edition, with the superb George Martin stereo mix, which I already owned. It was about that time I gave up on MoFi.
I had that MFSL Magical Mystery Tour as well.
My sister had what she said was a German copy of Abbey Road which I think may have been the same as your Dutch copy with Her Majesty missing: can't speak to the sound quality though.

MFSL always used US mastars. Sometimes there was one master for the US and UK as I understand it. Sometimes the multitrack tape was sent to the US and they made a separate stereo master. They didn't always get it right.

The US and UK mixes of Hendrix albums were different, for example. You can still find that on the digital versions today. Hamburger Concerto by Focus had a different guitar solo on one of the tracks, and I read recently that that was because they mixed in the wrong track.

Those US pressings of Focus albums often sounded like they'd been recorded in a bathroom...
 

Victor Martell

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A second generation copy that went to Germany or Italy, was used once and then stored safely for the intervening time - if one exists - is quite possibly of better quality than the original by now. I had a couple of good sounding Italian pressings back from the early 1990s that were definitely from copy masters. In fact it was MoFi that promoted the idea that all cuts from copy masters were inferior by definition, and maybe that's always been only a part-truth.

If I remember correctly, right now the best master tape of "A Love Supreme" is a backup or something like that, found in England? Going from memory, so might be wrong on the specifics, but the gist of my post is that indeed, it is true and makes sense, given the cavalier attitude the music industry execs of the had towards masters.

Again, going from memory, wasn't there a building used to store masters that the cocaine addled executives wanted to stop paying for... and they considered the masters trash and they wanted to destroy them?... again going from memory but I know that indeed it is more less accurate... Then add the Universal fire thing, again, neglect being a big contributor to the outcome.

Now with the vinyl revival, today's execs lament that attitude... If you can say ( AND IT IS TRUE) "All analog, cut from original masters" about the product, that product SELLS. Specially for stuff that in its digital incarnation (streaming, paid downloads, CDs) wouldn't generate as much money.
 

antcollinet

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If I remember correctly, right now the best master tape of "A Love Supreme" is a backup or something like that, found in England? Going from memory, so might be wrong on the specifics, but the gist of my post is that indeed, it is true and makes sense, given the cavalier attitude the music industry execs of the had towards masters.

Again, going from memory, wasn't there a building used to store masters that the cocaine addled executives wanted to stop paying for... and they considered the masters trash and they wanted to destroy them?... again going from memory but I know that indeed it is more less accurate... Then add the Universal fire thing, again, neglect being a big contributor to the outcome.

Now with the vinyl revival, today's execs lament that attitude... If you can say ( AND IT IS TRUE) "All analog, cut from original masters" about the product, that product SELLS. Specially for stuff that in its digital incarnation (streaming, paid downloads, CDs) wouldn't generate as much money.

Meanwhile in the sane world, let's hope people are backing up all the tape based masters - whether analogue or digital, to highest quality possible digital recordings.
 

Galliardist

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Now with the vinyl revival, today's execs lament that attitude... If you can say ( AND IT IS TRUE) "All analog, cut from original masters" about the product, that product SELLS.
As long as you don't get caught, it doesn't have to be true at all. MoFi had to put aside $25 million US - the price of several hundred thousand not-quite-analogue LPs sold over several years - to avoid that court case. They got away with it for a long time.
 

Multicore

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It set me thinking in light of the recent hitpiece on Ken Fritz that tried to blame complaints about lack of vacations from his ex-wife thirty years prior on his audiophile hobby in retirement.

Just I wonder if audiophilia is not almost the definition of a harmless hobby?
I'm late to this party so likely this has already been said. I think this frame is misleading. It's the person and her or his behavior, not the hobby. Model trains, sailing, motorcycle racing, mountaineering, collecting, making music and all neither positive nor negative in and of themselves. They are neutral. But a person can, with the hobby as object of their behavior, involve themselves in ways that affect their own life and the lives of those around them and the consequences can sometimes be regrettable. (I could give you personal examples but don't have time now.) If someone finds themselves so affected and sorts it out, that person might reflect on what happened and feel bitterness towards themselves, certain things or people or memes that were involved. That's understandable, I think.

So in a sense, yes, you're quite right: the hobby is harmless. But that's a rather narrow sense. Things relate and people assign agency to things.
 
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Ricardus

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I have seen this thread come up, and I read the OP's first post, and I still have no idea what he was asking.
 

egellings

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Yes, and it's the same (or should be) with lawyers. Lawyers are officers of the court. If they knowingly engage in illegal activity, even on behalf of their clients, they are guilty of a crime. A lawyer cannot, for example, develop legal documents on behalf of a client that perpetrates a fraud, without themselves being guilty.

The point is that the requirement to be honest is placed on all people all the time. As an engineer, I am obligated by the laws of the states where I am licensed to deal with clients honestly and transparently, but in all cases to place the good of the public above all other considerations.

That so many people don't do this is the human condition, but that doesn't mean people should excuse it as an "alternative point of view".

If people want to spend vast sums on audio equipment, then blessings upon their house. If their motivation is that they want people to know they have the money to do so, then they will get exactly what they seek (for better or worse), but they can do so without any moral judgment from me. If they want to post online about it so that their audio buddies will be impressed, then the (temporary) admiration of their audio buddies will be their reward and I hope it's worth to them what it costs. But if they tell others that each $xx,xxx component they buy lifts veils and reveals the true music, then they are in almost every case either deluded or dishonest. I don't give them a pass, because it's not that hard to be honest enough to avoid being deluded. Do they really hear that difference? I propose that most of the time they do not, even as a result of bias.

The people that sold them that stuff to take advantage of that delusion or to perpetrate it further, in the moral sense at least, perpetrated a fraud: They have sold something with the claim that it does something it does not do. I have a problem with that, because the people who design the stuff know better. The designers don't use incantations to design their stuff after all. They use electrical engineering principles and measurement equipment. And if they don't, they are likely to end up being highlighted on ASR with a panther missing his head. I'm not including people like Nelson Pass--he is fairly honest about what he's trying to do even when it isn't accuracy.

Remember that the rhetoric of the high-end isn't that it is colored in a way that people might find pleasing or at least not detrimental. The rhetoric they use is (like the example I quoted above) that their stuff uniquely improves the accuracy of the system in ways that defy the very measurements their designers used to create the stuff. I wish they would be honest and say, "We think the coloration of our amplifier sounds good, and we think you'll agree. Down with accuracy!" But that's not what they are saying.

It's not about the cost, or the hyperbole. It's about the deception. But the hyperbole is surely over the top. We've seen example after example of people saying that their system is noticeably better and even revelatory, compared to what they had last week, which they reported as noticeably better and revelatory compared to what they had the week before. Is there really that much room for revelation deserving of exclamation points? That's a pretty hard thesis to defend. But it sure enables people to look down their nose at their fellow man who merely possesses what they thought was revelatory last week. Manufacturers playing into this corrosive thinking is usually cynical.

There are industry executives who do actually believe this stuff, and I know a couple, so there is room for mere delusion as well as deception. I don't want to paint the whole industry with the same brush. But the industry has a whole would be more honest with an audio press that acts as a true evaluator rather than a collaborator (or enabler). Is that AA kind of talk? I don't know--I've never been to AA (I have been to Al-Anon, though, and the one feature common to those meetings is a willingness of people to expose their worst nightmares and deepest flaws in search of the truth. They don't get there ever time, of course, but the very thing they are trying to overcome is the pain of self-delusion that results in making life worse for themselves and the AA member they love.)

Cables are the easy target here. Test after test (both tests of electrical characteristics and controlled preference testing) has been unable to identify any detriment to using the cheap RCA cables that used to come free with equipment, the power cords that come from the hardware store, and line cord for the speakers, as long as they are sized appropriately for the signal. Yet claim after claim includes lofty descriptions of how the cables noticeably improve the quality of the resulting audio. They are careful to avoid adjectives that are directly measurable. This dishonesty undermines the concept of objective fact, which is even worse than the fraud it perpetrates.

Rick "it's not merely self-righteous to expose lying" Denney
I think that many audiophiles have no engineering background, so some of the bogus claims sound plausible to them. They can be fed a bunch of hooey about a cable and unknowingly fall for it. They'll buy the cable and think it makes their system sound better. Although the cable does not alter the sound, their belief filter does.
 

Victor Martell

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Meanwhile in the sane world, let's hope people are backing up all the tape based masters - whether analogue or digital, to highest quality possible digital recordings.

Well there is two parts of that argument - you are right OF COURSE. It is also kind of not the point. I know that this is ASR, but we should be able to state well, more than the obvious (there is a reason it is obvious, why keep hammering it?) and be able to think about and discuss about more than "audiophiles are foolish". Obviously we agree, but, well... Talking business here, right now, the business is to sell records. Well, there is licensing and stuff... but you know what I mean...

A recording company with recording artists... why blame them if they trying to sell... recordings?... so beyond your opinion which IMHO happens to be right, there is the fact of business... the PRACTICAL objective is to sell recordings, and right now, the ones the sell better and BENEFIT the company AND THEIR SHAREHOLDERS (if any) more are all analog cuts of classic records.

I believe we are right about digital being the practical way of doing this. But again, the point is the idiocy of the execs and the reality of commerce. That, what they considered trash (the analog masters) not worthy even of backing up, it is now recognized as treasure. Whether we agree or not.
 

Victor Martell

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I think that many audiophiles have no engineering background, so some of the bogus claims sound plausible to them. They can be fed a bunch of hooey about a cable and unknowingly fall for it. They'll buy the cable and think it makes their system sound better. Although the cable does not alter the sound, their belief filter does.

I just posted about hammering the audiophiles for their foolishness... why keep at it so much... and yet here I am posting about this because in the end... well, it is kind of fun! :D (for some reason)

If have compared non-fact based audiophilia to UFOlogy. That one is strange... they wrap their talk in scientific sounding terms... starting from the name of the thing! They have what it looks like serious conventions and yet, the pseudo-science is so glaring that the contrast is fascinating and horrifying at the same time. They have experts, eminences, enfants terrible and the such... almost like it is a real thing. Again, fascinating. And brings audiophilia into perspective. When I see/hear/read about someone discussing ever so seriously about the magical properties of a cable, reminds me of the ever so serious talk I found from a respectfully looking Doctor (guessing technically he might be but well, his discipline was never stated) about the types of UFOs. :D

OK - of the rant... like I said, let's not be repetitive here! :D
 

Jagamov

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I think that many audiophiles have no engineering background, so some of the bogus claims sound plausible to them. They can be fed a bunch of hooey about a cable and unknowingly fall for it. They'll buy the cable and think it makes their system sound better. Although the cable does not alter the sound, their belief filter does.

I agree but it doesn't stop there. A good friend of mine has a degree in EE, and he 100% falls for all of the phoolery. I just go along with it because in the end, he is happy, and he buys stuff that I wouldn't, so I get to try it all out for free.

But this issue extends to probably most hobbies. Firearms is another area where the myths and legends override basic facts.

The thing we all have to understand is that our passion is not someone else's. I'm always prepared to offer advice when asked, but if anyone I know makes a decision "I" feel is uniformed, well then so be it. If they are happy, I am happy.

Life is too short to be bothered by what other people do with their money.

And as I said before, a little phoolery sometimes is fun. I sometimes pay more because it's "cooler" looking. not because it works better. But I never buy cool over quality.
 

Koeitje

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Look at car enthusiasts putting money into their cars in the tens of thousands of dollars they'll never get back at resale. Boats are the only worse money pits. I think you can obsess over anything. Just go to Audiogon on the message boards and it'll take your breath away the conversations about what they pay for things (i.e. $5,300 AC power cords). Imagine spending hundreds of thousands for built ins and a listening room you have to sell with a house to move. People who say they "escaped" this hobby jumped in and went overboard spending, falling for marketing hype and false claims.
Those car mods actually do something though ;)
 

egellings

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I agree but it doesn't stop there. A good friend of mine has a degree in EE, and he 100% falls for all of the phoolery. I just go along with it because in the end, he is happy, and he buys stuff that I wouldn't, so I get to try it all out for free.

But this issue extends to probably most hobbies. Firearms is another area where the myths and legends override basic facts.

The thing we all have to understand is that our passion is not someone else's. I'm always prepared to offer advice when asked, but if anyone I know makes a decision "I" feel is uniformed, well then so be it. If they are happy, I am happy.

Life is too short to be bothered by what other people do with their money.

And as I said before, a little phoolery sometimes is fun. I sometimes pay more because it's "cooler" looking. not because it works better. But I never buy cool over quality.
I think that in the case of firearms or cars, those devices actually have to testably perform better in order to claim that they are in fact better. You can't imagine that a car is driving faster when the speedometer tells you it isn't.
 

egellings

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I just posted about hammering the audiophiles for their foolishness... why keep at it so much... and yet here I am posting about this because in the end... well, it is kind of fun! :D (for some reason)

If have compared non-fact based audiophilia to UFOlogy. That one is strange... they wrap their talk in scientific sounding terms... starting from the name of the thing! They have what it looks like serious conventions and yet, the pseudo-science is so glaring that the contrast is fascinating and horrifying at the same time. They have experts, eminences, enfants terrible and the such... almost like it is a real thing. Again, fascinating. And brings audiophilia into perspective. When I see/hear/read about someone discussing ever so seriously about the magical properties of a cable, reminds me of the ever so serious talk I found from a respectfully looking Doctor (guessing technically he might be but well, his discipline was never stated) about the types of UFOs. :D

OK - of the rant... like I said, let's not be repetitive here! :D
If it weren't for audiophools, we'd simply be preaching to the choir on this site.
 

mrbungle

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Those car mods actually do something though ;)
I am a sucker for fancy aftermarket bike parts so I can relate. Paying 5-10 times more for something ridiculously over-engineered that lasts 2-3 times as long is objectively dumb, but it looks nice and makes me enjoy it a lot more. Having said that, over-engineered is IMHO just a slightly less scammy flavor of snake oil. Like putting multiple top shelf AKM or ESS chips in a DAC to win the SINAD war.
 

DMill

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I am a sucker for fancy aftermarket bike parts so I can relate. Paying 5-10 times more for something ridiculously over-engineered that lasts 2-3 times as long is objectively dumb, but it looks nice and makes me enjoy it a lot more. Having said that, over-engineered is IMHO just a slightly less scammy flavor of snake oil. Like putting multiple top shelf AKM or ESS chips in a DAC to win the SINAD war.
Having over-engineered parts is not always a bad thing. I also cycle to keep in shape and can say I take no issue with some over-priced brakes that may save my life on the road with idiot drivers who can’t tolerate someone on a bike. Call me crazy, but I like my life more if a few bucks gets me something better. Audio is a bit different but I suppose a crappy power supply that could burn down the house is compelling. I do realize I’m talking about extremes but it’s worth noting. Ive never judged a man wearing a Rolex. In fact, I have a good friend wearing his father’s watch today. Still runs within a second. Over-engineered? Maybe?
 

JustJones

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They didn’t have to put any money aside



Under section

V. conclusion.

5. Defendants are DIRECTED to fund the settlement.

All documents

 

Justdafactsmaam

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Under section

V. conclusion.

5. Defendants are DIRECTED to fund the settlement.

All documents

You had me read 39 pages. What did I find? Estimated total cost to MoFi $890,000.00. I didn’t find any mention of setting aside $25,000,000.00. And it is done. Whatever refunds were claimed had to be done by a deadline. The payout total was about $890,000.00. And MoFi is free to resell every record they fully refunded because they had to be returned. Many of the records eligible for refunds were and still are selling above the retail price. Not to mention that a major portion of that payout was in the form of a coupon that could be used for any future purchase of a MoFi product. That’s nothing more than a revenue generating discount.
 
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