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The decline and fall of Reflex.

Chromatischism

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ISO which is a totally meaningless number in the digital camera world is purposely "adjusted", not exact, but close, so that it behave similarly when you take into account f-stop across different sensor sizes. That is the way cameras are designed. It is purely convention. That is why the combination of f-stop, ISO works out across various sensor sizes (approximately). f-stop, and focal length and sensor size will define field of view for a given sensor size, and f-stop/ISO, by design convention will give you equal brightness (approximately).
We agree here.
The small aperture has nothing to do with the shot noise, that is a factor of very small pixels on the smart phone resulting in very low full well capacity, i.e. not a lot of electrons. Yes you are light limited, but even with a long exposure on a smart phone camera and full pixels, you still with have lots of SHOT noise because there just are not that many electrons. Read noise is typically a bit higher as well.
You are right that tiny pixels have a large effect on this as what little light comes in has to be divided up. But we are basically saying the same thing otherwise: the reason the smartphone camera needs a long exposure to improve SNR is because it is also using a very small aperture diameter, or light collecting area. So there is an interplay. Imagine pouring water through a tiny 1mm wide funnel into a small cup. The bucket next to it with gallons dumping straight in is the full-frame or larger lens. So it's more correct to ask: is the pixel size adequate to achieve reasonable image quality with a small lens that doesn't let in a lot of light.
Aperture diameter (lens diameter) is what the lens can do. f-stop setting is what it is doing while I am taking the picture. I need to adjust focal length to get the same filed of view, and f-stop (actual aperture) to get the correct depth of focus.
You are right that functionally, we use the focal ratio or f-stop to modulate depth of field. That is related, but not the same as aperture diameter. A 105mm lens at f/2.8 has a much larger aperture (37.5mm) than a 20mm lens at f/2.8 (7.14mm). The 105mm lens will produce much cleaner images in the same amount of exposure time.
 

rdenney

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We agree here.

You are right that tiny pixels have a large effect on this as what little light comes in has to be divided up. But we are basically saying the same thing otherwise: the reason the smartphone camera needs a long exposure to improve SNR is because it is also using a very small aperture diameter, or light collecting area. So there is an interplay. Imagine pouring water through a tiny 1mm wide funnel into a small cup. The bucket next to it with gallons dumping straight in is the full-frame or larger lens. So it's more correct to ask: is the pixel size adequate to achieve reasonable image quality with a small lens that doesn't let in a lot of light.

You are right that functionally, we use the focal ratio or f-stop to modulate depth of field. That is related, but not the same as aperture diameter. A 105mm lens at f/2.8 has a much larger aperture (37.5mm) than a 20mm lens at f/2.8 (7.14mm). The 105mm lens will produce much cleaner images in the same amount of exposure time.

Not quite. The exposure is the same. The exposure setting is focal ratio, not merely aperture. F/2.8 on a 105mm lens has a bigger aperture, but a correspondingly smaller portion of the scene is magnified to fill that area. These offset one another to keep the intensity (photons/area) of illumination on the sensor the same.

Matching the degree of out-of-focus blur confounds the usual dimensionless reciprocal relationships, because, unlike exposure, it does relate to actual aperture size. F/4 on a 100mm lens has a 25mm apparent aperture. To get the same out-of-focus blur on a 50mm lens, one needs f/2. A 200mm lens achieves the same blur at f/8. All these have the same 25mm apparent aperture. (Assuming the same degree of enlargement, not the same target print size.)

But they all have different magnifications, and higher magnifications reduce the light for the longer lenses according to the inverse square law. Thus, to get the same exposure (intensity/time or photons/area/time), one needs a longer shutter opening.

Instead of a longer shutter time, we could simply amplify the received signal more, but that also amplifies the noise and we don’t see an increase in S/N. This is the effect of increasing ISO. It may well keep us in the sensor’s linear range, however, for a practical exposure settings.

Example:

My 645z’s 33x44 51MP sensor is almost exactly like four 13MP APS-C sensors in a 2x2 array. Sensel wells are the same size. It takes twice the focal length to preserve the same framing. Twice the focal length with the same aperture yields one-quarter the illumination because magnification doubles and light intensity is subject to the inverse square law. But that’s obvious, because the same butter is spread over four times the bread. Fortunately, we work in focal ratios rather than apertures to compensate. The same focal ratio for a lens twice as long means an aperture twice as big in diameter and four times the area, and compensates for the loss from the increase in magnification.

But larger sensels mean each is magnified less for a given display size. So we do stuff more light information into each unit of area of the displayed image. And more sensels mean we can make a larger display at the same resolution. So, more large sensels means bigger prints, or smaller prints with a higher density of tonal information, with better color. It also means noise (including the transfer function distortion caused by lens faults) is reduced relative to image size.

But that’s not because the aperture is bigger, it’s because the sensor is bigger.

Rick “bringing back memories of discussions long ago, long settled” Denney
 

audio2design

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You are right that functionally, we use the focal ratio or f-stop to modulate depth of field. That is related, but not the same as aperture diameter. A 105mm lens at f/2.8 has a much larger aperture (37.5mm) than a 20mm lens at f/2.8 (7.14mm). The 105mm lens will produce much cleaner images in the same amount of exposure time.

You are missing a fundamental aspect of the total light collection process. The 20mm lens will collect and project light onto the sensor from a correspondingly much wider FOV and assuming equal scene brightness will end up with exactly the same exposure.

Sorry rdenney, I did not notice till later that you already covered this.
 
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Wes

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Is it time to diverge into a rousing discussion of the advantages of BSI?
Backside Illuminated Sensor
 

Chromatischism

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Not quite. The exposure is the same. The exposure setting is focal ratio, not merely aperture. F/2.8 on a 105mm lens has a bigger aperture, but a correspondingly smaller portion of the scene is magnified to fill that area. These offset one another to keep the intensity (photons/area) of illumination on the sensor the same.
Intensity is exposure - but it is not SNR. You can have two photos with the same intensity but with very different SNR.
 

Chromatischism

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But they all have different magnifications, and higher magnifications reduce the light for the longer lenses according to the inverse square law.
This is the same as magnification - why the light spreads out.
Thus, to get the same exposure (intensity/time or photons/area/time), one needs a longer shutter opening.
You would not if aperture increased by the same ratio, maintaining the same focal ratio.
 

audio2design

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Intensity is exposure - but it is not SNR. You can have two photos with the same intensity but with very different SNR.

If we are talking about the same camera, then all else being equal, i.e. not changing exposure or shutter speed, the intensity will define how many electrons are generate and hence SNR. If you are working with similar sensor technology/fill ratios, then intensity can be interpreted to be a defining variable in a calculation of SNR/(sensor area).

Of course I don't see anywhere where rdenney (or I) said that intensity was the same as SNR, though it certainly can be a variable when taken into account with pixel size and shutter time. That and read noise, which is a function of ISO (gain).
 

Chromatischism

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You are missing a fundamental aspect of the total light collection process. The 20mm lens will collect and project light onto the sensor from a correspondingly much wider FOV and assuming equal scene brightness will end up with exactly the same exposure.
But I am not referring to exposure. Exposure is held at the same intensity due to maintaining the same focal ratio (ex 18-50 2.8 on APS-C vs 24-70 2.8 on FF). But there will be a difference in image quality due to the larger aperture of the FF lens. That is where the advantage comes from.
 

Blumlein 88

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You guys still haven't answered the question of which mirrorless camera I should get to replace my aging Canon DSLR.
 

Blumlein 88

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All depends what you plan to use the camera for.
Everything not done with my smartphone of course.

The benefits of DSLR and Mirrorless over smartphones is the basic camera body to which you add the specialized lens depending upon your use case.
 

audio2design

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You guys still haven't answered the question of which mirrorless camera I should get to replace my aging Canon DSLR.

Sony Alpha A6600. The best camera is the one you use, and this one is one you will use. Smart, fast, great images, and way more compact than your Canon so you are more apt to carry it with you.

If you are going for the ultimate in a FF, then take your pick, Sony, Nikon, Canon -- you will be happy with all of them. I am particular to Nikon for UI, but like the Sony A6x for a mirrorless small form factor. Sony for FF if you are big on video.
 

Blumlein 88

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Sony Alpha A6600. The best camera is the one you use, and this one is one you will use. Smart, fast, great images, and way more compact than your Canon so you are more apt to carry it with you.

If you are going for the ultimate in a FF, then take your pick, Sony, Nikon, Canon -- you will be happy with all of them. I am particular to Nikon for UI, but like the Sony A6x for a mirrorless small form factor. Sony for FF if you are big on video.
I'm not going the FF route. It of course provides the best photos, but the small form factor with very good quality is the part of the market I'm in. Thank you for the recommendation.
 

Chromatischism

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Everything not done with my smartphone of course.

The benefits of DSLR and Mirrorless over smartphones is the basic camera body to which you add the specialized lens depending upon your use case.
Do you need weather sealing? Do you need really high stills frame rates? Do you plan to use the camera a lot and thus ergonomics are important to you? Will you spend a lot of time doing video?
 

audio2design

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I'm not going the FF route. It of course provides the best photos, but the small form factor with very good quality is the part of the market I'm in. Thank you for the recommendation.

I have FF cameras, but I found I was using my D7200 more due to size/weight. I found that even too heavy and went to a D5500 which shaved quite a bit of weight with no loss in image quality, but a slower UI. Even that I was finding bulky, and ended up with the Sony. It took some getting used to, but it has virtually the same image quality as the Nikon, especially if you shoot raw (and better than Canon at the time), super fast focus, super fast burst, great video. I highly recommended it.
 

Chromatischism

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I also came from the D7xxx line and knew that was my limit in terms of size and weight. I was very happy to find the Z 6 was nearly the same, making my transition to full frame finally possible.

If full frame is not in the plans, a lot of people love the Z 50. It will be the better handling camera vs the Sony. I have not checked prices. The main gripe that people have is Nikon does not prioritize APS-C lens development so it does not see the rapid rollouts that the full frame line is getting. On the other hand, the Z mount allows nearly any lens to be adapted to it. At any rate check what's available. They may already have the lenses out that are suited to your needs.
 

rdenney

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This is the same as magnification - why the light spreads out.

You would not if aperture increased by the same ratio, maintaining the same focal ratio.

You took my second statement out of context. We don't maintain the same focal ratio when we are trying to maintain the same degree of blur--that requires the same absolute aperture. Which is why the shutter speed has to change, so that the total exposure remains the same.

Rick "the first statement is precisely what I was saying" Denney
 

rdenney

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But I am not referring to exposure. Exposure is held at the same intensity due to maintaining the same focal ratio (ex 18-50 2.8 on APS-C vs 24-70 2.8 on FF). But there will be a difference in image quality due to the larger aperture of the FF lens. That is where the advantage comes from.

No. Exposure is photons per unit area per unit time. Intensity is photons per unit area only. The advantage comes from greater area, not from a larger physical aperture at the same focal ratio. Do your dimensional analysis.

Rick "photons in, electrons out" Denney
 
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