"Things that cannot be measured"

[solderdude]

Disagreements arise because of the used 'sound quality evaluation techniques'.

 

[fmplayer]

Every week we get 1 or 2 believers showing up with their cup full of magic dust and all these things they can hear that no one knows how to measure. Celestial ears they have.

You must admit that perception is something subjective and purely individual. Hallucinations occur when your perception (visual, auditive, ...) is not true to reality. But can we speak of hallucinations in the case of daltonism/color blindness ?.
But admit also that someone can perceive more than you are. Take some musicians who are able to pick a 445Hz tuning fork among a bunch of 440Hz ones (former is sometimes used to tune instruments in ancient music). Maybe Tom Brady has a better perception of space than we have
Another story is when people believe in snake oil.
And that's a key: belief vs knowledge, faith vs facts. Some people are prone to the formers, other to the latters. Add to this psychology and context and you have a believer.
Beware of the Dark Side. Consume you it will...

 

[kristiansen]

Disagreements arise because of the used 'sound quality evaluation techniques'.

Very accurately said, mostly because we do not achieve the same results, but as I mentioned, if a group listens hears something really good Hifi or bad hifi the group will agree. Even the measurement mafia and those who are more subjective agree.

You can measure the good Hifi, but there is no guarantee that it measures more accurately than what sounds bad.
And I'm pretty sure you can not look at a set of measurements and say wov!!! this will sound absolutely fantastic, the opportunity can of course always be there.
I still think an assessment with ear and brain and a defined reference is superior in terms of measurement, in terms of what matters to the listener.
And measurement is best to check if the devices work as they should. Both have their place, but some obviously weight what they measure as more significant than what they hear. Or what?

 

[solderdude]

Very accurately said, mostly because we do not achieve the same results, but as I mentioned, if a group listens hears something really good Hifi or bad hifi the group will agree.

That's because the group consists of humans which all are subject to the same types of bias + there is something else that has been proven time and time again and that is group thinking.

Your test method is flawed. Period. That is the same for all folks in the group so the same results can be expected. Do not mistake this for concensus and validation.

The real test method would be: Test blind and individual with statistical relevance.

 

[fmplayer]

We are lucky to have real experts in this thread, so I will shut up.

However, I found this document interesting. It's a bit dated, but imho, illustrates why some testing choices were made (among other things)

https://www.bksv.com/media/doc/BO0385.pdf

However, quoted from this document (page 6) "Therefore, measuring just total harmonic distortion is clearly not enough to completely describe the nonlinear behaviour of an electroacoustic transducer. "...
What they say about inocuity of a simple distortion harmonic spectrum is consistent with what Hiraga said about distortion spectrum of amplifiers
Please also note that we always speak of frequency distortion, but never of dynamic distortion. Why ?

A loudspeaker is also a dynamic high pass filter, because of the limited excursion capabilities of the woofer membrane. But available FR measurements are always (not by amir, thanks god) made only at 2.83V. So, despite sometimes similar F3, the sound of a 12" woofer has nothing in common with that of a 7". Is it due to the increased distortion levels in the bass or to the dynamic lack of bass at higher listening levels of the latter ? My guess is the latter, because of Fletcher Munson curves

 

[mansr]

You must admit that perception is something subjective and purely individual. Hallucinations occur when your perception (visual, auditive, ...) is not true to reality.

Someone should make audiophile drugs with low-distortion hallucinations.

 

[mansr]

But admit also that someone can perceive more than you are. Take some musicians who are able to pick a 445Hz tuning fork among a bunch of 440Hz ones

That's a simple task if you're allowed to compare them in quick succession. Even easier is to strike them in pairs and listen for a beat.

 

[mansr]

Amir is showing the power spectrum. This reveals the nonlinear aspects of a device fairly nicely.

To elaborate on that, if the power of the distortion is sufficiently low, its phase becomes irrelevant.

 

[Phorize]

Yes a group of people who have the same goal hifi narturtro reproduction and good experience and who know the reference the live music.
Why do you not think such a group can arrive at a more accurate result than the individual blindfolded ????, they can !!!, That’s what it’s all about, and then you can stick your demonstrably useless blind test up where it’s very dark.

You’re missing the point, the only way you can attribute any reported result to what is actually heard is through controlled, blind testing. Anything else is making up the results.

 

[CMOT]

Someone should make audiophile drugs with low-distortion hallucinations.

Good wine???

 

[fmplayer]

That's a simple task if you're allowed to compare them in quick succession. Even easier is to strike them in pairs and listen for a beat.

I whitnessed the conductor of my local symphonic orchestra doing this without comparison ... Golden ear

 

[fmplayer]

Yes a group of people who have the same goal hifi Lifelike reproduction and good experience and who know the reference the live music.
Why do you not think such a group can arrive a more accurate result than the individual blindfolded ????, they can !!!, That’s what it’s all about, and then you can stick your demonstrably useless blind test up where it’s very dark.

Reproduced music is all but live music. Best you can do is maintain tonal accuracy through the producing chain and illusion of orchestra. Don't even dream of replicating the acoustic power of a band in your room

 

[mansr]

I whitnessed the conductor of my local symphonic orchestra doing this without comparison ... Golden ear

Picking up a single tuning fork and telling whether it's 440 Hz or 445 Hz without anything to compare against is indeed difficult. It's still well within the bounds of what a human can plausibly hear, though, unlike things many audiophiles claim to notice.

 

[Raindog123]

Don't even dream of replicating the acoustic power of a band in your room

Because you say so? Or do you have proof of that? Beyond “believe me, I was there” or “it can’t be done because it’s impossible” hand-waving?

 

[fmplayer]

Picking up a single tuning fork and telling whether it's 440 Hz or 445 Hz without anything to compare against is indeed difficult. It's still well within the bounds of what a human can plausibly hear, though, unlike things many audiophiles claim to notice.

Of course. In many fields, some people are just exceptionally gifted. I quoted Tom Brady, add Roger Federer, ... take your pick. It's just factual

The audiophiles you're talking about are just prone to belief

 

[fmplayer]

Because you say so? Or do you have proof of that? Beyond “believe me, I was there” or “it can’t be done because it’s impossible” hand-waving?

Acoustic power of a 75 person symphonic orchestra is about 70W. Considering a 3% efficiency of an average loudspeaker, you would need some 2.3kW of amplification. BTW, I said acoustic power, not acoustic level. Regarding acoustic level, it is feasible in a listening room.

 

[Objectivist01]

Emotion. Can an instrument measure the emotion of a performance or the emotional impact of a particular song or passage has upon an individual?

Emotion is subjective. I have seen people get tears while listening certain passages of classical music. To me they sounded crap

 

[mansr]

Emotion is subjective. I have seen people get tears while listening certain passages of classical music. To me they sounded crap

Maybe they hated it even more than you did.

 

[Objectivist01]

Maybe they hated it even more than you did.

Can be true too. So that means it's subjective still

 

[Raindog123]

BTW, I said acoustic power, not acoustic level. Regarding acoustic level, it is feasible in a listening room.

And what’s the difference between the two?

Certain amount of power gets emitted at the sound source. With its max [power] level. Than it travels throughout the space, and as it fills larger and larger volume, it’s [power] level gets lower and lower...