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Amazon Music HD up scales everything. So...?

valerianf

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About Amazon Music HD i got stereo at 192khz or DD+ 2.0 at 48Khz.
I am using DD+ because my AVR is able to send the music to 5 speakers when the sampling is 48Khz.
I am fully satisfied by the sound quality, but not by Amazon Music HD user interface.
For now it is the best audio quality that I have ever had at home.

I do not care about the exact sampling rate because I do not believe that any sound distribution keeps the exact bitrate of the microphone A/D converter. For sure the Studio manipulate the data, and may be the music provider too.
What is important is the sound quality that you get as end user.
 

Alec Kinnear

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if you have found a way to get your DAC to ‘force’ the app to output native, can you tell any difference between the two?

An interesting question. I often hear a difference when 44.1 is force upsampled, whether to 96 kHz or 192 kHz. The music starts to sounds blurry. When I flip back to 44.1 kHz, suddenly there is more clarity. Not all combinations of automatic uprezzing create this issue. I've had some luck setting an E30 to 192 kHz and taking whatever is offered. Sometimes with Amazon Music though even 192 kHz lacks clarity (I believe it's when it's 44.1 kHz being upsampled as it doesn't round well to 192 kHz).

vs Spotify

Like @raindance, I'm a very satisfied Spotify user (did spend three miserable months trying to like Apple Music, my partner who shares whatever music service we are using basically stopped listening to music for two months, she hated Apple Music that much). But like @valerianf pointed out, when Amazon HD has the right track at the right sampling rate, matched in the DAC, the quality is better than anything else I've ever heard streamed. Far better than Tidal/WIMP (my first service), far better than Spotify. Not all of the masters of course are good. Neil Young's very high resolution masters (192 kHz 24-bit on Amazon HD) for some reason are completely awful, worse than Spotify. Fleetwood Mac sounds great. So does Rush (these artists are not my normal daily listen but are showcased in one place on the Ultra HD Rock playlist, less prominent artists only usually show up in CD quality, which also sounds good, say Silence by Jourdane).

I'm struggling with @Bamyasi's point – that Amazon doesn't care about audiophiles and won't bother fixing their apps to maintain sampling rate in the DAC. If Amazon doesn't care about audiophiles why would they launch an HD music service? Second, even if audiophiles make up a tiny minority among the subscribers to Amazon Music HD, audiophiles are usually the reviewers for music products. Hence by failing to keep up with Qobuz (Swinsian, Audirvana are players not streaming services, although Audirvana has some kind of compatibility with Qobuz and perhaps Tidal), Amazon is setting itself up for many very negative reviews of Amazon Music HD for many years.

I.e. Amazon fixes the sampling rate issue or Amazon Music HD will struggle against a stream of negative publicity. Hopefully there's someone at Amazon Music HD who actually cares about music and quality sound reproduction. It can't all be MBA's jockeying for corporate position. And even in that case, one of those ought be intelligent enough to try to understand their market and take the steps necessary effectively compete.

HD Music Streaming Market

Qobuz is a bit pricey. Primephonic gives me some joy as it's both high-resolution and a great environment in which to enjoy classical music (well-catalogued, attractive white minimalist layout – loathe the all black all the time grungy spotify look however well it works) and can be enjoyed for a first year at least very inexpensively. Primephonic does switch sampling rates on iOS (just tested, switched from 96 kHz to 44.1 kHz when moving from an HD Rites of Spring to a CD quality Four Seasons). With the automated sampling rate change test passed successfully at least on iOS, I've just jumped in with both feet actually as the first year cost ended up at just €50 in my case. Here's the link to the discounted first year for those classical music lovers here.

When I feel like investing €100 in Audirvana and another €150 to €250 in Qobuz (that's €350 to travel first class almost every year, Audirvana requires regular paid upgrades as well, it's on v3.5) maybe I'll leap. My price point for HD is not really more than another €8/$10/month on top of the €9 month I spend with Spotify already. Amazon Music HD has a chance if the sampling rate is fixed and a public API is added. My price would work out to €10 for me and €13 for a family plan. Qobuz family plan is €500/year! That's three times more than the €156 Amazon Music HD would cost. Even the individual plan (with the right to discounted purchases) is 5 x more expensive than the Primephonic offer for which I've just signed up.

Speaking of which, I don't understand why Qobuz charges a higher yearly subscription to allow listeners to buy HQ album downloads at a discount. I would probably have signed up for Qobuz already if the basic membership included discounted purchases of albums. That would make Qobuz more money and the artists more money, as I do like to buy music but not at inflated rates. Basically purchasers of music are being shut out now, in favour of streaming. CD's are too much trouble. Downloads are generally overpriced or not CD quality, although I do still buy sometimes on Bandcamp where there are some very fair offers on independent artists.

Streaming revenue AND sales is what would revitalise the income of mid-tier musicians. The top tier are doing fine and the lower tiers will always struggle (but would at least have occasional windfalls if more music was sold rather than streamed).
 
OP
Yorkshire Mouth

Yorkshire Mouth

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It was great of Amazon to go lossless. And despite the audiophile market being relatively small, I think they’re missing a trick.

Their model appears to be to sell TV Sticks at a loss (or little-to-no profit), as a way of pushing Amazon content.

Altering the PC app and enabling USB out on the Stick & Cube would be easy, and would make their music far more audiophile-friendly.

The things we’ve talked about would be a low-cost, almost no-cost way of allowing us to trumpet Amazon HD is the de facto streaming service of choice.

And that would have an impact far beyond the audiophile world.
 

Music1969

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The things we’ve talked about would be a low-cost, almost no-cost way of allowing us to trumpet Amazon HD is the de facto streaming service of choice.

Hopefully the Spotify HiFi news makes Amazon fix their desktop apps a bit quicker now.

But people should write to Amazon, not just here. They don't read these forums.

With enough complaints they might get around to fixing this simple thing.
 

Jimbob54

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How come know one talks about Qobuz here? I have really happy with it.

I use it. Has 3 significant shortfalls.

1. Not as good a library as tidal (or at least IME) so some new or existing releases I read /hear about aren't there but are on tidal

2.limits playlists to 1000 tracks. In this day and age that's bonkers.

3. Zero recommendation capability.

IME experience none of the streaming services are perfect, you are picking your poison.
 

HiFidFan

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How come know one talks about Qobuz here? I have really happy with it.

In addition to what Jimbob pointed out above, my trial version would lock up/freeze on a daily basis. It also seemed to be a relatively big resource hog. I never tried to troubleshoot (MacBook Pro) because I wasn't happy with the platform overall. I cancelled and moved on.
 

Jimbob54

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An interesting question. I often hear a difference when 44.1 is force upsampled, whether to 96 kHz or 192 kHz. The music starts to sounds blurry. When I flip back to 44.1 kHz, suddenly there is more clarity. Not all combinations of automatic uprezzing create this issue. I've had some luck setting an E30 to 192 kHz and taking whatever is offered. Sometimes with Amazon Music though even 192 kHz lacks clarity (I believe it's when it's 44.1 kHz being upsampled as it doesn't round well to 192 kHz).

vs Spotify

Like @raindance, I'm a very satisfied Spotify user (did spend three miserable months trying to like Apple Music, my partner who shares whatever music service we are using basically stopped listening to music for two months, she hated Apple Music that much). But like @valerianf pointed out, when Amazon HD has the right track at the right sampling rate, matched in the DAC, the quality is better than anything else I've ever heard streamed. Far better than Tidal/WIMP (my first service), far better than Spotify. Not all of the masters of course are good. Neil Young's very high resolution masters (192 kHz 24-bit on Amazon HD) for some reason are completely awful, worse than Spotify. Fleetwood Mac sounds great. So does Rush (these artists are not my normal daily listen but are showcased in one place on the Ultra HD Rock playlist, less prominent artists only usually show up in CD quality, which also sounds good, say Silence by Jourdane).

I'm struggling with @Bamyasi's point – that Amazon doesn't care about audiophiles and won't bother fixing their apps to maintain sampling rate in the DAC. If Amazon doesn't care about audiophiles why would they launch an HD music service? Second, even if audiophiles make up a tiny minority among the subscribers to Amazon Music HD, audiophiles are usually the reviewers for music products. Hence by failing to keep up with Qobuz (Swinsian, Audirvana are players not streaming services, although Audirvana has some kind of compatibility with Qobuz and perhaps Tidal), Amazon is setting itself up for many very negative reviews of Amazon Music HD for many years.

I.e. Amazon fixes the sampling rate issue or Amazon Music HD will struggle against a stream of negative publicity. Hopefully there's someone at Amazon Music HD who actually cares about music and quality sound reproduction. It can't all be MBA's jockeying for corporate position. And even in that case, one of those ought be intelligent enough to try to understand their market and take the steps necessary effectively compete.

HD Music Streaming Market

Qobuz is a bit pricey. Primephonic gives me some joy as it's both high-resolution and a great environment in which to enjoy classical music (well-catalogued, attractive white minimalist layout – loathe the all black all the time grungy spotify look however well it works) and can be enjoyed for a first year at least very inexpensively. Primephonic does switch sampling rates on iOS (just tested, switched from 96 kHz to 44.1 kHz when moving from an HD Rites of Spring to a CD quality Four Seasons). With the automated sampling rate change test passed successfully at least on iOS, I've just jumped in with both feet actually as the first year cost ended up at just €50 in my case. Here's the link to the discounted first year for those classical music lovers here.

When I feel like investing €100 in Audirvana and another €150 to €250 in Qobuz (that's €350 to travel first class almost every year, Audirvana requires regular paid upgrades as well, it's on v3.5) maybe I'll leap. My price point for HD is not really more than another €8/$10/month on top of the €9 month I spend with Spotify already. Amazon Music HD has a chance if the sampling rate is fixed and a public API is added. My price would work out to €10 for me and €13 for a family plan. Qobuz family plan is €500/year! That's three times more than the €156 Amazon Music HD would cost. Even the individual plan (with the right to discounted purchases) is 5 x more expensive than the Primephonic offer for which I've just signed up.

Speaking of which, I don't understand why Qobuz charges a higher yearly subscription to allow listeners to buy HQ album downloads at a discount. I would probably have signed up for Qobuz already if the basic membership included discounted purchases of albums. That would make Qobuz more money and the artists more money, as I do like to buy music but not at inflated rates. Basically purchasers of music are being shut out now, in favour of streaming. CD's are too much trouble. Downloads are generally overpriced or not CD quality, although I do still buy sometimes on Bandcamp where there are some very fair offers on independent artists.

Streaming revenue AND sales is what would revitalise the income of mid-tier musicians. The top tier are doing fine and the lower tiers will always struggle (but would at least have occasional windfalls if more music was sold rather than streamed).
Where are you getting e500 for annual family qobuz from? I have the hi res streaming for family for £200 or so a year. I don't even think the sublime family gets near 500. But I agree paying more to get discounts on what for me would be rare purchases doesn't make much sense. The streaming element is identical.
 

Jimbob54

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In addition to what Jimbob pointed out above, my trial version would lock up/freeze on a daily basis. It also seemed to be a relatively big resource hog. I never tried to troubleshoot (MacBook Pro) because I wasn't happy with the platform overall. I cancelled and moved on.
Should state I do not use the player side of it so can't comment. Via roon for desktop and uapp for android mobile
 

Music1969

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2.limits playlists to 1000 tracks. In this day and age that's bonkers.

Bonkers is the right word. I've told Qobuz this too.


In addition to what Jimbob pointed out above, my trial version would lock up/freeze on a daily basis. It also seemed to be a relatively big resource hog. I never tried to troubleshoot (MacBook Pro) because I wasn't happy with the platform overall. I cancelled and moved on.

It is a very slow app for me too.

All these companies have had Spotify to look at and learn from the past 8 years, for how speedy an app should be.

Seems no one has learnt anything.

Apple Music on macOS is a joke too. It's no longer iTunes but it's still as slow.
 
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Taddpole

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Where are you getting e500 for annual family qobuz from? I have the hi res streaming for family for £200 or so a year. I don't even think the sublime family gets near 500. But I agree paying more to get discounts on what for me would be rare purchases doesn't make much sense. The streaming element is identical.

Seems part of some screwy maths to make Amazon feel better value. The sublime is $499 over the pond but like you say the discount purchases seems bad plan.

Like for like the qobuz is $250 for hi res family if bought annually or c$300 if paid monthly. Amazon $240.
 

Alec Kinnear

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Seems part of some screwy maths to make Amazon feel better value. The sublime is $499 over the pond but like you say the discount purchases seems bad plan.

Like for like the qobuz is $250 for hi res family if bought annually or c$300 if paid monthly. Amazon $240.

Here's what I see when I go to Qobuz's site:

Qobuz-family-rates.png


Family is €350/year without purchase discount (Amazon HD doesn't offer this, but if I took up Qobuz I'd want it). That would be €500/year.

Amazon Music HD would not require an annual purchase (could go back to Spotify only for summer months when I'm outside enough that I don't need the HD streaming) and would cost me what I said it would: €13 for family plan, €10 for individual (which I might choose as my partner likes Spotify and doesn't care about HD streaming). I have a hard time imagining giving up Spotify in either case.

So for Qobuz I could go with individual but whether as monthly or for Studio (purchase discounts) it ends up at €249/year up front. I.e. double of Amazon. Qobuz makes it very hard to casually join. There's no monthly on Studio (which I might try or occasionally use to make purchases). Qobuz is trading on exclusivity, high prices and snobbery. Qobuz will struggle as Amazon improves their Music HD service and Spotify adds at least CD quality. Their will always be an audience willing to pay more for less as long as it's wrapped up in a "high end" ribbon so Qobuz will probably be fine.

In the meantime, I'm absolutely having a blast with Primephonic (invitation link gets you two free months trial). Just discovered Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla's recording of Troilus & Cressida with City of Birmingham Orchestra. Stunning, albeit it 'just' 44.1 CD quality. This was a featured album on home page and didn't disappoint. Feel like I'm back in the old Sam the Record Man (Toronto reference) days.

The British Project - Walton- Troilus & Cressida.png


This will probably be my sole HQ streaming investment of the year (may buy some additional downloads of course). I don't find that most of my folk and alternative artists (Sandy Denny, Bridget St John, Barbara, Luna) benefit much from HD so I'm happy to keep listening to them on Spotify and move most of my classical music listening and exploration over to Primephonic. One annoyance is that there's no Last.fm integration at Primephonic.

I agree with @Music1969 that if listeners do want Amazon to improve the players, both desktop and iOS, to include sample rate switching, we need to write to Amazon directly. Perhaps even linking to this thread would help (so that Amazon can see that basically all audiophiles are annoyed with the player side, while we are impressed with the actual encoding and streaming behind the scenes).

Again agree with @Music1969 that Apple Music is simply too slow. I thought that lag/speed might have been an international issue for me, but apparently not.
 

julian_hughes

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I think you've very much misread the Qobuz website/offer.

I pay monthly for Qobuz Studio. I first began using it as a subscriber by way of the one month free trial they offer everyone. Previously I'd purchased music via their webstore. You don't need to be a paying member to purchase music or to use the app to play those purchases.
 

Alec Kinnear

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I pay monthly for Qobuz Studio. I first began using it as a subscriber by way of the one month free trial they offer everyone. Previously I'd purchased music via their webstore. You don't need to be a paying member to purchase music or to use the app to play those purchases.

To get Qobuz's best price on downloads, not only do you have to be a subscriber, you have to be a "Studio Sublime" subscriber. The Sublime subscription is not currently offered on their website on a monthly basis.

Qobuz-individual-rates.png


The idea of discounts for streaming subscribers is fine, but forcing upgrades to yet another tier to get discounts on downloads is just not on for me. The whole Qobuz, pay and pay and pay again schtick is not working for me at all.

I'm glad you are enjoying Qobuz, Julian. The more good streaming services the better. I was intrigued enough by Qobuz to give it a serious look. If I do decide to buy Audirvana (€100), it comes with a three month Qobuz Studio Sublime trial, of which I intend to avail myself. I decided to buy Swinsian (€21) and Colibri (€7 on the Apple Mac App Store) instead of Audirvana, as 1. library/playlist management is fairly awful on Audirvana and wonderful on Swinsian 2. both of those are single purchases rather than yearly upgrades (Audirvana appears to have had at least four paid upgrades in the last five years) 3. Audirvana limits installs to one or two computers, I have three or four and neither Swinsian of Colibri limit installs to your personal computers. I don't mind one time expenses but really dislike burdening myself with high ongoing monthly costs or artificial restrictions on installs.

Audirvana's sound quality is better, but that's precisely because it's not bit-perfect. Audirvana sweetens the music with a slight lift in the treble (it's in the 10 kHz range) and slightly widening the stereo separation. Basically Audirvana functions as an audio filter. Instead I'm running Rogue Amoeba's SoundSource ($30 without discount) which allows me to run any number of AU or VST filters I like. Instead of a single (albeit very, very good) filter stuck in a single player, I have access to hundreds of high quality free and thousands of paid filters which I can combine in any order I like.

Three months of free Qobuz half pays for Audirvana so it's a good bonus for what is a very good sounding player.
 

julian_hughes

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Qobuz regularly has sales with huge discounts offered to all, subscriber or not. That's how I encountered them, they were doing a 60%(!) discount on Naxos Hi Res downloads. Since subscribing I no longer make purchases as I can stream and/or download anything they offer, and play it back however I like. This idea of "pay and pay and pay again" is simply not true. I'm in UK & pay £14.99 monthly, nothing more. It is a bit more than Amazon or Tidal but it's more useful for me than Amazon & is much better for Classical than Tidal. I would use Primephonic in preference but their app doesn't let me pass lossless streams to my DLNA/UPnP renderers.

The service/offer Qobuz make is not at all like your descriptions. Anyway, people can try out all these different services for free for a month & make up their own minds.
 

Alec Kinnear

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Qobuz regularly has sales with huge discounts offered to all, subscriber or not. That's how I encountered them, they were doing a 60%(!) discount on Naxos Hi Res downloads.

That's great that you found a good doorway in, Julian. Any tips to potential new users (mine above covers people considering buying Audirvana (which gives a solid three month free trial).

[QUOTE="julian_hughes, post: 716846, member: 19166"I would use Primephonic in preference but their app doesn't let me pass lossless streams to my DLNA/UPnP renderers.[/QUOTE]

I've been able to get high resolution 24-bit 192 kHz out of desktop (via browser, albeit with hand tuning) or automatically out of the iOS app on Primephonic. How does Qobuz integrate better into your system than Primephonic? This is a genuine question from someone who is setting up a long term environment for HQ streaming.
 

julian_hughes

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I don't want or need a computer running a web browser simply to play music. As stated previously, I can access anything my Qobuz subscription entitles me to via partner apps such as BubbleUPnP and others, send the lossless audio to any device I prefer, and I can control it all from my phone.

I'll explain my set up.

My music files reside on a home server running Debian. That runs minimserver. minimserver serves all the audio files stored on that server and makes them available to any DLNA/UPnP controller. I like the BubbleUPnP app for android. This allows me to access the music and pass it losslessly to any suitable UPnP/DLNA renderer on my LAN (I use silent embedded devices running armbian, accepting the streams via gmediarender, outputting those streams to USB DAC and then to amp/speakers/headphone/whatever, and also I often listen on my phone or tablet). The server also runs BubbleUPnP *server*, which makes those same files available outside the LAN so, for example, when I am away from home I can access my music in the same way and pass it losslessly to any locally available renderer i.e. my phone with or without a USB DAC, my laptop, etc.

The BubbleUPnP android app has a built in official Qobuz plug-in. You enter your Qobuz account details and you have access to everything your Qobuz subscription offers and, regardless of any subscription status, any music you have purchased from Qobuz. You can treat all the available music exactly as if it is physically stored on your home server and route it to any device you prefer. I think BubbleUPnP allows you to do the same with Tidal and stuff stored on cloud like Google Drive, DropBox etc. It's a shame that only Tidal & Qobuz seem to realise the utility & value in this.

Another way is to use the Qobuz app. This allows you to pass any stream via the Android share menu, so you can send the music stream to any app capable of accepting it. If you share the album/song/playlist to BubbleUPnP then you can pass it to your home hi-fi, an audio player on your phone, another Android device, a Smart TV running Kodi, a PC or laptop running Kodi or Windows Media Player or Foobar2000 or gmediarender etc. etc.

The value to me of Qobuz+UPnP over Primephonic is that I can be listening to an album or playlist and instantly switch it to playing back on another device i.e. I move the playback from my living room loudspeakers to my bedroom loudspeakers, or to my phone on my LAN, or maybe I'm going out and I can switch the stream to my phone and continue listening via my 4G connection while I'm in town or travelling. Some of the above may seem complex but in practise what I do to move a stream is click a button on the app, it shows me the available renderers and I choose one and playback moves to the selected device quicker than I can unplug or plug in a set of headphones. It's pretty good! You do need to have a server running at home but these days that can be as cheap and unobtrusive as an old Android TV box converted to run Armbian, and a USB SSD for storage.
 

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Alec Kinnear

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Some of the above may seem complex but in practise what I do to move a stream is click a button on the app, it shows me the available renderers and I choose one and playback moves to the selected device quicker than I can unplug or plug in a set of headphones. It's pretty good! You do need to have a server running at home.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Julian. It's impressive. I worry about including an outward facing server in our home network. I'm responsible for a dozen servers at work and the security issues and maintenance issues we deal with there are enough for me. Primephonic is not great on desktop Mac yet (I haven't found a way to automate sample rate switching yet) but it does automatically switch sample rate on iOS at least. Which means I can just move my phone around and plug it into the room's DAC via USB. On my desk, the connection is a lightning to USB/ethernet/power adapter which means a hard wired ethernet connection is just a single plug away, which also charges.

While I have a great collection of CD's, half of them are digitised to MP3 and only half to FLAC. I don't have most of them available instantly as it's just too easy to pull them down off of Spotify. I do like the security of having my own copies (who knows when the streaming companies will jack the prices by triple or a host of favourite artists will just remove their music) but while streaming is so affordable and hassle-free, it's hard to go through all the trouble of digitising and cataloguing oneself. I have hooked up a CD player to my new setup so I'll be spinning some discs though over the next few years, as a reminder of the days of record and CD collections and another kind of listening.

Sticking to hand-rolled Android and Linux offers more control and privacy though. I admire what you've built.
 
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