Missing Fundamental

[LTig]

we all have absolute pitch. it is just not trained. if we hear a song a thousand times we can say when it is in the wrong pitch.
with that beeing said, it seams that an adult can't train it to the point of identify notes.

If this is true we could all sing the first three notes of Smoke in the Water in the correct pitch. Let's all try and then compare if we got it right.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I don't, but your study proofs it is trained, no?

Not as I read it. It does show that training is a factor, and the earlier the age of onset the better, but it doesn't rule out that for some (or many?) individuals, no amount of training will lead to the development of asbolute pitch.

Indeed, given that 40% of individuals who were native speakers of a tone language and had begun musical training at age five or younger and had gone on to study music as adults were still unable to develop absolute pitch, that suggests that even in the most optimal circumstances, a significant proportion of the population is biologically incapable.

I am obviously speculating a lot here though

 

[andreasmaaan]

If this is true we could all sing the first three notes of Smoke in the Water in the correct pitch. Let's all try and then compare if we got it right.

I actually got it, lol (have tested and been confirmed not to have absolute pitch, though).

 

[andreasmaaan]

But you are asked to identify A0@392 and that frequency did NOT exist on the piano @440.

You trained down to 27.5. A0@440.
Now A0@392 is 24.50.

Ok, but are you arguing that someone who has absolute pitch in the context of a society/upbringing in which A4=440Hz would not have had absolute pitch if they had grown up (in otherwise identical circumstances) in a society in which A4=392Hz?

 

[Jimbob54]

Look, please:
I train you to identify a 440 Hz tone.
When I play it, you are to say: it is A4.
Good boy.
Now I play 392 and tell you is G4.
Very well.
Now we have to manage the tuning for a gig and have to match other instruments and tune for 392.
If I play A4, 392, you will have to say it is G4, as before, but it is not.
In this case, A4 and G4 match perfectly, but if we go to A0 you will hear that frequency for the very first time in your life.

I am 100% sure you know what you are talking about, but sadly you are not really following the flow of the thread here. Its moved well past your a4/g4 analogy. Hence, folks are confused by your last few comments.

 

[F1308]

Ok, but are you arguing that someone who has absolute pitch in the context of a society/upbringing in which A4=440Hz would not have had absolute pitch if they had grown up (in otherwise identical circumstances) in a society in which A4=392Hz?

Of course !!!
As I said before: for a fix instrument. Training, practice, behold... persevere.
But you shift a frequency and everything is destroyed.
Someone going to the other country will not achieve it. Will need be trained again. What you were told G4, now is A4.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Of course !!!
As I said before: for a fix instrument. Training, practice, behold... persevere.
But you shift a frequency and everything is destroyed.
Someone going to the other country will not achieve it.

Hmm, that makes absolutely no sense to me. If I have absolute pitch in a naming system in which G4 = 440Hz, then I’m told that what I called G4 (440Hz) is now called A4, all I need to do is transpose each note name up one tone in order to identify it per the new naming system. This kind of transposition is trivial, and I still have absolute pitch.

 

[F1308]

Hmm, that makes absolutely no sense to me. If I have absolute pitch in a naming system in which G4 = 440Hz, then I’m told that what I called G4 (440Hz) is now called A4, all I need to do is transpose each note name up one tone in order to identify it per the new naming system. This kind of transposition is trivial, and I still have absolute pitch.

Yes, you had it.
Not anymore, until you change the names you assign to the notes.
And get accustomed to the new 24.5 (A0).
Like suddenly wearing yellowish sunglasses...

 

[andreasmaaan]

Yes, you had it.
Not anymore, until you change the names you assign to the notes.
And get accustomed to the new 24.5 (A0).

Ok, let me put my argument another way: If the English-speaking world decided to switch the words for “red” and “blue”, would that render me literally colour-blind until I had become accustomed to the change of naming system?

 

[F1308]

Ok, let me put my argument another way: if the English-speaking world decided to switch the words for “red” and “blue”, would that render me literally colour-blind until I had become accustomed to the change of naming system?

No, but you will need practice.
And while a pianist can play instantly the piano regardless of the tuning, you will have a bad time getting that perfect pitch again if instead of going 440-392 we go 440-415. Or 440-465.
Something needed at times when temperatures affects the brass...
I made it 440-392 before because it was an easy step...A4-G4 and even then the mistake became obvious.

 

[MRC01]

I don't have absolute pitch, but having played music since I was a kid, I can tell you blindfolded what note is being played on a flute and whether the instrument is sharp or flat. That's because each individual note has a distinct timbre and the instrument can only be in tune with itself at 1 specific pitch. Thus doing this doesn't require absolute pitch, but only attention to timbre and relative pitch.

Generally speaking, long tube notes have a thicker, darker timbre. And as you slide the headjoint in or out to tune it, this affects the pitch of short tube notes twice as much as long tube notes.

I mention this to point out that musical training improves hearing perception in ways that might be confused with absolute pitch. One thing I cannot do is turn on my electric shaver and say, "E flat" (or whatever).

 

[dasdoing]

If this is true we could all sing the first three notes of Smoke in the Water in the correct pitch. Let's all try and then compare if we got it right.

I actually got it, lol (have tested and been confirmed not to have absolute pitch, though).

I got it, too....with that beeing said..I did this before with other music, sometimes I got it, sometimes not.....but the fact is that getting it right only once allready proves my point

 

[LeftCoastTim]

Clearly some one is trolling.

Piano-1 is tuned to (A440). Playing the white keys from A4-A5 results an A-minor scale.
Piano-2 is tuned to (A392). Playing the white keys from A4-A5 results in an "A-minor"* scale.

But Piano-2 played the same pitches as Piano-1's G-minor scale.

People with absolute pitch can obviously cannot tell Piano-2's "A-minor" to Piano-1's G-minor scale, because they are the same pitches.

And notice that the trolling user has derailed a thread for the second time.

 

[Jimbob54]

Clearly some one is trolling.

Piano-1 is tuned to (A440). Playing the white keys from A4-A5 results an A-minor scale.
Piano-2 is tuned to (A392). Playing the white keys from A4-A5 results in an "A-minor"* scale.

But Piano-2 played the same pitches as Piano-1's G-minor scale.

People with absolute pitch can obviously cannot tell Piano-2's "A-minor" to Piano-1's G-minor scale, because they are the same pitches.

And notice that the trolling user has derailed a thread for the second time.

Certainly doesn't go with the flow.

 

[StevenEleven]

Clearly some one is trolling.

Piano-1 is tuned to (A440). Playing the white keys from A4-A5 results an A-minor scale.
Piano-2 is tuned to (A392). Playing the white keys from A4-A5 results in an "A-minor"* scale.

But Piano-2 played the same pitches as Piano-1's G-minor scale.

People with absolute pitch can obviously cannot tell Piano-2's "A-minor" to Piano-1's G-minor scale, because they are the same pitches.

Except they’re likely not exactly the same frequencies and (even ignoring small differences in timbre) as is not so obvious many of them can tell the difference, because. . . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_temperament. : )

Also they can know by ear what frequency an orchestra is tuned to (it can vary) and they will probably find it annoying if it is not what they are used to, but some can adapt on the spot.

(Edited repeatedly for knit-picky accuracy because I have to be careful about the terms used.)

 

[andreasmaaan]

I got it, too....with that beeing said..I did this before with other music, sometimes I got it, sometimes not.....but the fact is that getting it right only once allready proves my point

Doesn’t that prove only that you have some ability to discern between pitches?

 

[waynel]

a deep foghorn is created using two closely spaced high-pitch sirens.

Do you have a link or reference for this. You spiked my curiosity but I did not find evidence of this.

Thanks
Wayne

 

[BenB]

What if 100, and 200hz are missing? What pitch would one hear?

Answer: 100Hz.

I can't be the only one who perceives those two "almost identical" sounding notes as being an octave apart, right? I mean they sound completely different to me. I don't have perfect pitch or anything close to it, but the difference there is clear as day. I also played around with the online tone generator (https://onlinetonegenerator.com), and could perceive things down to about 11 Hz with my Sony MDR-7506 headphones. I'd think there's a good chance that I was actually hearing a distortion product rather than the fundamental. Annoyingly, I also checked the high end. I can hear 14 kHz in my left ear, but not my right... so that sounds like it's panned full left to me. The fact that my hearing is different between my ears (something different about my eustachian tubes) is probably a big part of why binaural recordings don't work for me, but stereo does.

 

[infinitesymphony]

So I guess all we're talking about in this thread is acoustic music written before 1900 without any brass or metal percussion (so that high-frequency harmonics and timbre can be said not to matter much), yet that for some reason is tuned to A440 which only became a standard in 1975 (ISO 16:1975).

Good luck having immutably perfect pitch calibrated to A440 if you want to join the New York Philharmonic. They use A442. Several other orchestras use different tunings. If you're in a baroque ensemble playing on gut strings you might tune to A415.

I'm glad this discussion was pulled out of the thread(s) it was in, because there's so much misinformation here.

 

[StevenEleven]

So I guess all we're talking about in this thread is acoustic music written before 1900 without any brass or metal percussion (so that high-frequency harmonics and timbre can be said not to matter much), yet that for some reason is tuned to A440 which only became a standard in 1975 (ISO 16:1975).

Good luck having immutably perfect pitch calibrated to A440 if you want to join the New York Philharmonic. They use A442. Several other orchestras use different tunings. If you're in a baroque ensemble playing on gut strings you might tune to A415.

I'm glad this discussion was pulled out of the thread(s) it was in, because there's so much misinformation here.

It was a discussion about the missing fundamental (a relatively simple subject by comparison but still fascinating IMHO) but I do believe I dragged it off course. Please do help us get it right. . Not being facetious here. I can see you know what you are talking about.