Choosing between Denon X8500H, X4700H and X3700H AVRs

[Hifisound]

You can mix actives and passives. You will use the preouts on the active channels. The amps will be connected so you will be limited to 1.4v of clean output on all but the L/R channels (if you have those set as disconnected via amp assign).

So only difference from 8500 is that the amps are always on, and can't be disconnected. No difference in usage but amps being on and unused (for channels using pre outs). And full 5.1.4 and 7.1.4 setups can be done

 

[Dj7675]

So only difference from 8500 is that the amps are always on, and can't be disconnected. No difference in usage but amps being on and unused (for channels using pre outs). And full 5.1.4 and 7.1.4 setups can be done

My answer was based on all models except the x8500. On all these Denon models all the amps are on all the time. With the 8500, you can disconnect any channel in the custom amp assign menu. With the other other 2021 models you can disconnect just the L/R channels or disconnect all amps with the preamp mode. On all the models the preamp outputs are always active (whether amps are disconnected or not). Hope that makes sense.

 

[jalaute]

So only difference from 8500 is that the amps are always on, and can't be disconnected. No difference in usage but amps being on and unused (for channels using pre outs). And full 5.1.4 and 7.1.4 setups can be done

Pre-amp behavior changes depending on rxr amp on/"off" selection. The significance of the difference is dependent on your channel usage (internal/external) and external amp input requirements. There are 2 choices for rxr amp "off" to externally amplify- L/R and "all" (blue line applies to both cases). If you want to externally amplify beyond L/R and short of "all" (like C or some number of surrounds), the green line will apply for those specific "additional" channels.

This is where your external amp input requirements come into play. Degradation in performance (in both usage cases) begins above 1.4V pre-out (amp input drive level). The measurable difference between the blue and green cases is obvious. Where this degradation becomes significant/objectionable is a matter of debate and is also dependent on your specific system/listening environment/volume preference.


The 8500 has a very similar blue/green graph, but it has a huge (in my opinion) operational difference from the "lesser" rxrs- it provides the option to turn "off" any desired internal amp channel. It has better performance for the "off" blue line ([email protected] and 102dB@2V) and most significantly- it's performance on the green line (also better) is not relevant (in regard to external amplification), since any desired channel can be turned "off" (blue line would then apply).

Flagship model/capabilities at a flagship price- unfortunately, no "trickle down" for the amp selection options...

 

[DrewMcG]

@amirm

I have some good and bad news to announce. Good news, I was given the bad / good capacitor lot # by Denon. Moving forward, after purchasing my second 6700H, relieved today. I emailed my level 2 Denon contact. Once again, quick to respond.

Bad news, I have another 6700H w/ the same cap issue which will ultimately go back again. That said, all is not lost. So now, I have a base line s/n # in which we can use and see what you're testing or re-testing as far as the 6700H degraded cap issue is concerned. If your test system falls within this s/n number, I will feel confident I could attain / purchase a good system. But dependent on your final test results.ly

And please, I need to get off this roller coaster. We hope to hear from you by the end of the week? with great test results.

Thanks again!

Truly sorry to hear about your continued trials & tribulations with the X6700H. As I understand it, you are planning to run it with all amps off (pre-outs only). In that configuration, you felt that both the X4700H that arrived in a beat-up box and the X6700H with bad caps sounded splendid, but that the X4700H ran hotter? Is this right?

Do you need/will you use the extra two channels pre-amplification (13 vs. 11) that the X6700H offers over the X3700H or X4700H? If not, I don't understand why you don't just buy an X3700H (or X4700H if you want Auro 3D) and toss a couple of low-spinning fans on it. That's what I've done with my X4700H (using Peng's suggested link for fans) and heat is simply not an issue. Fans on low are completely silent.

Perhaps you are hoping the an X6700H with the proper caps will approach the marginally better Sinad (pre-amp only) of the X8500H.
I understand that the X6700H and X8500H are both monolithic amp designs. But you aren't planning to use the internal amps, right? And the X8500H scored equal to (or lower) than the X3/4700H AVRs using the internal amps, right? And as other have commented, the X8500H has substantial upgrades over the X6700H in other areas.

I hope that your patience with the X6700H (going for three samples!) is rewarded with X8500H-level pre-amp performance ( I really do). Gotta say I'd be surprised if this will be the case, though. Good luck.

 

[peng]

Truly sorry to hear about your continued trials & tribulations with the X6700H. As I understand it, you are planning to run it with all amps off (pre-outs only). In that configuration, you felt that both the X4700H that arrived in a beat-up box and the X6700H with bad caps sounded splendid, but that the X4700H ran hotter? Is this right?

Do you need/will you use the extra two channels pre-amplification (13 vs. 11) that the X6700H offers over the X3700H or X4700H? If not, I don't understand why you don't just buy an X3700H (or X4700H if you want Auro 3D) and toss a couple of low-spinning fans on it. That's what I've done with my X4700H (using Peng's suggested link for fans) and heat is simply not an issue. Fans on low are completely silent.

Perhaps you are hoping the an X6700H with the proper caps will approach the marginally better Sinad (pre-amp only) of the X8500H.
I understand that the X6700H and X8500H are both monolithic amp designs. But you aren't planning to use the internal amps, right? And the X8500H scored equal to (or lower) than the X3/4700H AVRs using the internal amps, right? And as other have commented, the X8500H has substantial upgrades over the X6700H in other areas.

I hope that your patience with the X6700H (going for three samples!) is rewarded with X8500H-level pre-amp performance ( I really do). Gotta say I'd be surprised if this will be the case, though. Good luck.

The X6700H has the same power amp section as the X8500H. The X8500H has a better DAC IC and that may be the reason it scored a slightly higher SINAD than the X4700H. May be he prefers the made in Japan 6700's supposedly better build quality, gold plated connectors etc., aside from the 13 channel processing capability.

 

[Vasr]

One of the things that is not talked of enough in these AVR selections and use as pre/pros with external amps, etc., is the amount of real estate they need in your audio setup. This is my number one (but not the only) reason for not going this route. And then you have to worry about adding a cooling system on top of it along with sufficient venting, etc.

Let us face it, these behemoths with their insane amount of connectors most of which are not used by most of the people are designed to be the "only thing you need" philosophy not to play nice with expansion. Why provide 8 or 11 or 13 amps all of the same power and size in a chassis when most of the channels surrounds don't really need it? Lots of marketing reasons, very few technical justifications.

May be these designs will go better with sensibilities of people who like McMansions with Chevy Tahoes in the driveway or have dedicated closets or audio rooms but I think this is an absurd situation created by the AVR oligopoly.

If this doesn't call for a disruption to come soon and make svelte Class D based systems send these dinosaurs to an early grave, I will be very surprised.

 

[Bello]

View attachment 79128

Pre-amp behavior changes depending on rxr amp on/"off" selection. The significance of the difference is dependent on your channel usage (internal/external) and external amp input requirements. There are 2 choices for rxr amp "off" to externally amplify- L/R and "all" (blue line applies to both cases). If you want to externally amplify beyond L/R and short of "all" (like C or some number of surrounds), the green line will apply for those specific "additional" channels.

This is where your external amp input requirements come into play. Degradation in performance (in both usage cases) begins above 1.4V pre-out (amp input drive level). The measurable difference between the blue and green cases is obvious. Where this degradation becomes significant/objectionable is a matter of debate and is also dependent on your specific system/listening environment/volume preference.

View attachment 79146
The 8500 has a very similar blue/green graph, but it has a huge (in my opinion) operational difference from the "lesser" rxrs- it provides the option to turn "off" any desired internal amp channel. It has better performance for the "off" blue line ([email protected] and 102dB@2V) and most significantly- it's performance on the green line (also better) is not relevant (in regard to external amplification), since any desired channel can be turned "off" (blue line would then apply).

Flagship model/capabilities at a flagship price- unfortunately, no "trickle down" for the amp selection options...

Great outline of performance differences. all X system comparisons, 8500 food for thought. May rethink my purchase or maybe not. The 8500Ha might be a bridge to far? $ for the performance difference? I just hope the spec's caps for 6700H are God tuned.

@amirm - I'm biting my nails off, ahh not really... Your keeping us in suspense, how much longer for your 6700H results? And remember, we agreed to no Hawaii or Fuji island trips until its done.

Thanks!

 

[Puddingbuks]

One of the things that is not talked of enough in these AVR selections and use as pre/pros with external amps, etc., is the amount of real estate they need in your audio setup. This is my number one (but not the only) reason for not going this route. And then you have to worry about adding a cooling system on top of it along with sufficient venting, etc.

Let us face it, these behemoths with their insane amount of connectors most of which are not used by most of the people are designed to be the "only thing you need" philosophy not to play nice with expansion. Why provide 8 or 11 or 13 amps all of the same power and size in a chassis when most of the channels surrounds don't really need it? Lots of marketing reasons, very few technical justifications.

May be these designs will go better with sensibilities of people who like McMansions with Chevy Tahoes in the driveway or have dedicated closets or audio rooms but I think this is an absurd situation created by the AVR oligopoly.

If this doesn't call for a disruption to come soon and make svelte Class D based systems send these dinosaurs to an early grave, I will be very surprised.

More of everything sells apparantly.

More megapixels, more camera’s, more hdmi inputs, more more more! 11 of even 13 amp channels is crazy in 99% of the homes they are used in.

 

[Bello]

Truly sorry to hear about your continued trials & tribulations with the X6700H. As I understand it, you are planning to run it with all amps off (pre-outs only). In that configuration, you felt that both the X4700H that arrived in a beat-up box and the X6700H with bad caps sounded splendid, but that the X4700H ran hotter? Is this right?

Do you need/will you use the extra two channels pre-amplification (13 vs. 11) that the X6700H offers over the X3700H or X4700H? If not, I don't understand why you don't just buy an X3700H (or X4700H if you want Auro 3D) and toss a couple of low-spinning fans on it. That's what I've done with my X4700H (using Peng's suggested link for fans) and heat is simply not an issue. Fans on low are completely silent.

Perhaps you are hoping the an X6700H with the proper caps will approach the marginally better Sinad (pre-amp only) of the X8500H.
I understand that the X6700H and X8500H are both monolithic amp designs. But you aren't planning to use the internal amps, right? And the X8500H scored equal to (or lower) than the X3/4700H AVRs using the internal amps, right? And as other have commented, the X8500H has substantial upgrades over the X6700H in other areas.

I hope that your patience with the X6700H (going for three samples!) is rewarded with X8500H-level pre-amp performance ( I really do). Gotta say I'd be surprised if this will be the case, though. Good luck.

You make all good points. At first, I did consider 4700H until Amirm found a major 2 channel performance issue which took days / weeks for Denon to figure out. After Denon's work around solution for the 2 channel issue, I had made up my mine to go with a Japanese made 6700 system for various reasons I explained in previous posts. After much consideration, and testing both systems 4700/6700. I had reservation as to the design of the 4700 amp area / high heat. And yes, I have filtered infinity fans on high. Even in pre-amp Mode way too hot vs 6700. My take, just a piss poor amp area design, due to cost? Second, the 6700H drives my speakers better (+20 watts, sweet spot) when I use my internal amps which future proofs my equipment for later upgrades. Among the other extended features, I presently use.

Pros/Cons, after much thought performance vs difference $. The 6700H w/ 11 amps vs 9 falls more inline with the 8500H component structure and design layout at a good overall price point, period...

Now, if the SINAD retest results from Amirm come in bad with the spec'd caps. I may rethink this whole mess all over again.

I am not looking for 8500 SINAD performance (won't happen) but inline or better then 3700/4700.

I am not asking for much.

 

[Dj7675]

@amirm

I have some good and bad news to announce. Good news, I was given the bad / good capacitor lot # by Denon. Moving forward, after purchasing my second 6700H, relieved today. I emailed my level 2 Denon contact. Once again, quick to respond.

Bad news, I have another 6700H w/ the same cap issue which will ultimately go back again. That said, all is not lost. So now, I have a base line s/n # in which we can use and see what you're testing or re-testing as far as the 6700H degraded cap issue is concerned. If your test system falls within this s/n number, I will feel confident I could attain / purchase a good system. But dependent on your final test results.

And please, I need to get off this roller coaster. We hope to hear from you by the end of the week? with great test results.

Thanks again!

Are you needing the 8k from the 2021 models Now (are a gamer)? If not I would pick up an open box/full manufacturer’s warranty 8500 for $3k. Using some of the internal amps is very cost effective. And being able to turn off individual channels is worth it in my opinion over the 8k input of the 2021 models.. With the 8500, if/when you need 8k, you send it in to Denon and they will install the upgrade card (probably $299-$399 Which makes it a x8500a). You also don’t ever have to worry about the CAP issue. Just buy the 8500. Price difference is neglibile and the benefits are nice. Done.

 

[ririt]

Pre-amp behavior changes depending on rxr amp on/"off" selection. The significance of the difference is dependent on your channel usage (internal/external) and external amp input requirements. There are 2 choices for rxr amp "off" to externally amplify- L/R and "all" (blue line applies to both cases). If you want to externally amplify beyond L/R and short of "all" (like C or some number of surrounds), the green line will apply for those specific "additional" channels.

I am not sure to catch your statment (may be an issue with my english level because I am french).
My understanding of the Amir’s measurement was the following: if you are using either the 3700h or the 4700h in a full amp mode with the appropriate number of power amps connected to the preout of the AVR (In my case it will be 5), you will able to maintain a SINAD above 95dB up to 2V output. It is right or I miss something in what Amir did?

 

[Dj7675]

I am not sure to catch your statment (may be an issue with my english level because I am french).
My understanding of the Amir’s measurement was the following: if you are using either the 3700h or the 4700h in a full amp mode with the appropriate number of power amps connected to the preout of the AVR (In my case it will be 5), you will able to maintain a SINAD above 95dB up to 2V output. It is right or I miss something in what Amir did?

I think at 2V the x3700 SINAD is at 75 with the amps connected. Clipping starts at 1.4. At 2V on the disconnected L/R you would get around a SINAD of 97.5.

 

[Bello]

Are you needing the 8k from the 2021 models Now (is a gamer)? If not I would pick up an open box/full manufacturer’s warranty 8500 for $3k. Using some of the internal amps is very cost effective. And being able to turn off individual channels is worth it in my opinion over the 8k input. With the 8500, if/when you need 8k, you send it in to Denon and they will install the upgrade card (probably $299-$399 Which makes it a x8500a). You also don’t ever have to worry about the CAP issue. Done.

That is all understood, and no I'm not a gamer unless my son jumps into the picture. I did consider all my options, including a discounted 8500H.

I'm not into shipping heavy systems UPS / FEDX back and forth for upgrades. Sounds like a good idea but I'm not looking for additional trouble.

I'm going all high end, 8K audio / 8K Samsung as a final solution. That said, eARC vs ARC is my bottle neck if going from 8500H - 8500Ha.

Open box? I prefer 30/60 day money back guarantee, if when I buy a system. Needed time to run through testing of most feature / function.

Open box, not sure how that would work. Almost like buying a used car, someone else's headache? Hit or miss... I'm having enough problems with brand new systems, imagine open box? lol

Thanks!

 

[ririt]

I think at 2V the x3700 SINAD is at 75 with the amps connected. Clipping starts at 1.4. At 2V on the disconnected L/R you would get around a SINAD of 97.5.

This is also my understanding. However, what is not clear for me is what is going on with the other channels which remain connected to internal amps (e.g. Center) in a scenario where only the R and L channels will be disconnected from internal amps. Based on the Amir’s measurement (AVR amplifier measurments), should I expect a SINAd around 88-89dB? Or worse?

 

[Hifisound]

View attachment 79128

Pre-amp behavior changes depending on rxr amp on/"off" selection. The significance of the difference is dependent on your channel usage (internal/external) and external amp input requirements. There are 2 choices for rxr amp "off" to externally amplify- L/R and "all" (blue line applies to both cases). If you want to externally amplify beyond L/R and short of "all" (like C or some number of surrounds), the green line will apply for those specific "additional" channels.

This is where your external amp input requirements come into play. Degradation in performance (in both usage cases) begins above 1.4V pre-out (amp input drive level). The measurable difference between the blue and green cases is obvious. Where this degradation becomes significant/objectionable is a matter of debate and is also dependent on your specific system/listening environment/volume preference.

.

I would be connecting 5 x JBL 308mkii (which also have the -10dBV setting) to bed layer channels, LCR and surrounds.
4 x Passives would be used for height layer.
(AVR under consideration is X3600)

 

[Dj7675]

This is also my understanding. However, what is not clear for me is what is going on with the other channels which remain connected to internal amps (e.g. Center) in a scenario where only the R and L channels will be disconnected from internal amps. Based on the Amir’s measurement (AVR amplifier measurments), should I expect a SINAd around 88-89dB? Or worse?

See amp on.

 

[amirm]

@amirm

I have some good and bad news to announce. Good news, I was given the bad / good capacitor lot # by Denon. Moving forward, after purchasing my second 6700H, relieved today. I emailed my level 2 Denon contact. Once again, quick to respond.

Bad news, I have another 6700H w/ the same cap issue which will ultimately go back again. That said, all is not lost. So now, I have a base line s/n # in which we can use and see what you're testing or re-testing as far as the 6700H degraded cap issue is concerned. If your test system falls within this s/n number, I will feel confident I could attain / purchase a good system. But dependent on your final test results.

And please, I need to get off this roller coaster. We hope to hear from you by the end of the week? with great test results.

Thanks again!

If all goes well, I plan to test the new 6700 today/tonight. It will be a brief test just to see if the main issue is resolved.

 

[amirm]

@amirm - I'm biting my nails off, ahh not really... Your keeping us in suspense, how much longer for your 6700H results? And remember, we agreed to no Hawaii or Fuji island trips until its done.

If one of you wants to come here to pickle 10+ pounds of cucumbers I picked last night for us, I can test the 6700 now. Otherwise, have to take a trip to WalMart to buy the pickling supplies and then I can test the new 6700 per above. The cucumbers can't wait!!! They get limp if they sit around much.

 

[Dj7675]

This is also my understanding. However, what is not clear for me is what is going on with the other channels which remain connected to internal amps (e.g. Center) in a scenario where only the R and L channels will be disconnected from internal amps. Based on the Amir’s measurement (AVR amplifier measurments), should I expect a SINAd around 88-89dB? Or worse?

I am guessing you really were asking about the 3700. See below. This chart has amp on and amp off measured. As you can see it is very good up to 1.4v.

 

[Puddingbuks]

If all goes well, I plan to test the new 6700 today/tonight. It will be a brief test just to see if the main issue is resolved.

When will the NAD T778 review be published?