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Harbeth Super HL5+

q3cpma

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From what I've seen, no doubt a lot less than you because I've actually bought major components without looking at the manufacturer's website at all, including my Harbeth speakers, is that pro audio websites publish lots of data and consumer audio websites don't.

Why might that be? How about the possibility that the vast majority of consumers don't care and don't know what Thiele/Small parameters are (and that includes me) and if they do happen to look at the website would just like some basic useful information and some nice pictures.

Does the make them audiophile idiots who do not have the right to exist because they haven't checked every measurement down to the designer's inside leg measurement?

No, it makes them normal people who like music who want to buy a pair of speakers, or a integrated amplifier, or whatever. That's the vast majority of customers, so I'm led to believe by several dealers, and I know plenty of people like that.

So if consumer audio companies filled their websites with technical measurements for the benefit of you and other people on ASR, it would likely put off a lot of the other 99.99% of the audio buying public and cost them both business and money.

I doubt you would believe the test data anyway, unless it's been done by Amir, on the premise that anything put on a consumer website is marketing lies to deceive the ignorant buying public.

Websites are designed by designers who know what sells. Technical stuff sells to technical professionals. Consumer companies need a USP to sell to consumers. That's how it is and always will be.

I recall an advertising executive telling me years ago that there was an inviolate rule that advertising billboard posters must NEVER have more than 10 words. Otherwise it will be universally ignored. What was Labour's election slogan? I have no idea, can't remember. The Tories? "Get Brexit Done". That was genius. Three words that won an election and destroyed Revolutionary Socialism.

So if you want measurements for a consumer product, ask the manufacturer on their forum or direct.
Mate, you don't really believe all that crap, right? It could be as simple as an hyperlink to a PDF in the "Downloads" section they already got, no need to overwhelm buyers on the page itself. And you don't lie on measurements you publicly post, otherwise the first independant test will wreck your reputation; way more safe to not post any measurements, really. I thought you were honest for a moment, but that's not acting in good faith right here.

Anyway, this applies also to what they call "studio monitors", so I don't know where you get you consumer thing. They even say "The most accurate studio speaker" on the 40.2 page. Heh.
 
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balletboy

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Mate, you don't really believe all that crap, right? It could be as simple as an hyperlink to a PDF in the "Downloads" section they already got, no need to overwhelm buyers on the page itself. And you don't lie on measurements you publicly post, otherwise the first independant test will wreck your reputation; way more safe to not post any measurements, really. I thought you were honest for a moment, but that's not acting in good faith right here.

Aniway, this applies also to what they call "studio monitors", so I don't know where you get you consumer thing. They even say "The most accurate studio speaker" on the 40.2 page, heh.

Yes, I do believe it. It's reality. It what companies do because it works.

How many additional sales do you think it would generate by providing that data? I'll tell you - None. If it did, they'd provide it.

When that data did matter because consumers understood it, manufacturers provided it. Google the Quad 63 manual and you will see lots of dispersion charts and measurements. Gramophone has been reviewing equipment since the 1920s and until the mid 1970s most reviews were almost entirely technical. They were carried out by top engineers like John Borwick and the first thing they did was check the manufacturer's published data. Amplifiers would be reviewed without playing music.

The Quad 33/303 was a landmark amplifier in the 1970s because of the lack of audible distortion. In fact John Borwick had to buy better test equipment to measure it. As watts because increasingly cheap and CD players arrived, audible distortion largely disappeared and functionality and format wars became more important to consumers. Measurements became largely irrelevant to consumers. Now they are almost completely irrelevant, which is why consumers don't ask for them, wouldn't understand them and manufacturers usually don't provide them.

That said, it's very helpful to have measurements that show that units are plain bad, for example Amir's test of the Jeff Rowland amp that is probably no better, or possibly worse, than a Nord nCore or ICE amp.

But neither Devialet nor Devialet owners will give a rat's ass about what Amir has to say. His reviews damaging their reputation? Do me a favour, unless he's planning to jump naked off the Eiffel Tower, I doubt more than a handful of actual or potential Devialet customers will ever have heard of Amir or ASR in their lifetimes.

People buy Devialet, Hegel and Naim Uniti multifunction products for their astonishing functionality. On a technical level, the Stereophile narrative review of the Devialet 140 was extremely good and the technical concern about noise on the RCA inputs is irrelevant as they are rarely used and then for phono input which has a much higher noise floor anyway.

As far as the Harbeth website, I can't comment as I've never really looked at it.
 

MattHooper

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It's the Harman way or the highway, that's a bit unfortunate imo

There's decades of solid research behind Harbeth , personally iv never liked them ( or any plain box with drivers stuck in them ) but I bet a pair would of out lived my JBL's.

This preference table taken as gospel here is nonsense imo sure it's a good guide but it's a one size fits all solution to a issue that's more nuanced.

I also think shoving the harmon research down everyone's throats till they gag is not the way forward either . The BBC research is valid and well supported.

Having said all that I'm not a fan of the ' there's stuff we can't measure' arguement. Sure you might want to listen find the speakers for you but that dose not mean there's some unmeasurable mystery going on.

All in all some of you need to learn to agree to disagree. These intense confrontational back and forth battles don't help anyone .

I'm inclined to agree.

I don't have any particular flaw to pick out of Harmon's research per se. But outside the lab, reality is more sprawling and messy, so I'm very cautious about taking exhaustive conclusions from the Harmon research. Inside the harmon lab where variables can be controlled and carefully winnowed away, the results reach a high degree of predictave success. But outside the lab with all the messy variables of speaker designs, and how human bias/perception interacts, it's harder to map the predictions. Consumers, audiophiles in particular, have found great satisfaction listening to many different types of speakers. (For instance, though I find the HK speakers sound excellent, I find myself routinely more enamored by the Harbeth speakers).
 

Ilkless

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1) Barely even worth replying. You will find that most businesses that make good products find they sell and bad products don't, and you can't do it for 43 years without being found out.
2) They do use computer modernisation and extensive measurements. They also test all their designs at the NPL (National Physical Laboratory).
https://www.npl.co.uk/our-work/
3) In the UK the BBC is a sacred cow and still does a huge amount of research. https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects
One of it's current projects is spatial audio.

The BBC also bought in drivers. The LS3/5a used a KEF B110 driver. The stiffness was provided by a polymer called Bexdrene, that is uneven and degrades over time. As noted above, Harbeth invented their own driver polymer because it's the single most important component of a speaker and nothing commercially available was good enough. So-called BBC speakers from Spendor, Chartwell, Harbeth etc. are in reality modern derivatives, but with the same configuration and thin wall design.

The BBC designed a monitors for their broadcasting needs and licensed them commercially. They have been selling for almost 50 years, and no other speaker has been copied more, from Linn Kan's to KEF LS50.

With regard to speech being the acid test, that has been said to my face by the chief engineers of PMC and Dynaudio, as well as Harbeth.

We will have to differ on the last point. I suspect all competent loudspeaker manufacturers voice their designs, measure then and, in Harbeth's case, manufacture and test them with modern test equipment to extreme tolerances. If the rule of this forum is that to judge a product by anything other than it's measurements on the premise that everything can be measured, otherwise you are a "classic audiophile, happily wallowing in ignorance and telling us ghost stories", then I will wear that badge with honour.

I joined this forum yesterday and it has been an eye-opening experience that such a narrow-minded mindset has an almost cult-like status. If that is the rule, close my account now - seriously - but it has been an interesting discussion.

The irony is that Harbeth is the antithesis of audiophile. A few years ago Alan Shaw used an Asus DAC that he bought in a supermarket for £99 at a major audio show because he measured it better than a £10,000 DAC a company had loaned him for some free publicity.

It is a laughably backward design. You need an education on the subject. Alan Shaw, like Rob Watts of Chord, is a technically-competent engineer using his skill not to push the frontier, but to defend the hill they choose to die on: handicapping themselves with rationally-indefensible design choices and then being economical with the truth. Let's not conflate that with actual performance, where disproved by empirical evidence. There are a few broad claims to justify Harbeth-style designs by its apologists:

1. Downplaying or wilful ignorance of off-axis behaviour. The SHL5+ linked above shows a massive dispersion mismatch. Many details remain contestable in the vagaries of in-room reproduction. But consistent, smooth dispersion isn't. Pursuing it is consistent with how human hearing functions. To pick Harbeth is to be wilfully ignorant - one could even say anti-intellectual - in the face of this evidence, arrogating that your ears do not function like that of any other human being, claiming that your anecdotal experience supersedes decades of acoustics and auditory research.

What's contestable is how broad this range of smooth dispersion should be, and whether the transition from the optimal range should be smoothly fading or a hard boundary. But Harbeth, in dismally failing even the basic premise of smooth dispersion that precede these legitimate questions, fail to engage them. This article is the first stop to understand why. I have quoted the salient paragraph in my earlier post. It is tremendously intuitive should one step out of the bubble of cognitive dissonance one inhabits in being an apologist for antiquated design. Once this is done, the act of pretending Harbeths to be acoustically state-of-the-art or even high-performance based on anecdotal experience is extremely disingenuous. Peer-reviewed research in authoritative journals have long documented the flaws of anecdotal experience (See Section 3: "Biases in Affective Judgments"). Please don't conflate confounding variables such as the mythology or story Alan Shaw claims with claims of acoustic performance. It is all the more insidious because unlike, say Audio Note, which rely on blatant mysticism, Harbeth's story is superficially evidence-based. It just uses a carefully-curated and cultivated version of outdated evidence from BBC research that has long been superseded, or simply does not address questions such as dispersion behaviour that were not known at the time or beyond their means to properly test.

2. The BBC thin-wall design. Dudley Harwood was an experimental genius. Let's get that out of the way lest one think otherwise. But a thinking man like Harwood would have been acutely aware of hewing closely to his original experimental questions and design requirements. The thin-wall solution was a balanced solution for technology of the time, rugged usecase, budget considerations, ease of manufacturing, portability, and a modicum of experimentally-derived resonance control through relatively-controlled listening tests to help reduce obvious enclosure-related colourations. The frontier has moved a lot since then. In the early 90s, it became possible to directly measure the cabinet radiation independently of the driver radiation (ie. the share of colouration imparted by the cabinet), a technique that Harwood did not have access to. By the 2000s, B&W (which has other flaws unrelated to cabinet design) could use 3D models to accurately simulate enclosure vibration and optimise for it. Similar techniques are in use at KEF, as well as Neumann and Genelec. Before you say it, these techniques are not perfect, but have been refined for so long that we trust it for vastly more critical applications like space travel and ballistics. And the models are unequivocal: smooth edgeless enclosures, achievable only by materials such as cast aluminium or bent ply, are superior on numerous fronts: diffraction, reflection, and cabinet resonance for a start. The sound radiation by the drivers is, in every way, less perturbed. So there cannot be tenable counter-arguments founded on mere anecdotal experience (as apologists like you are wont to wield) against established empirical research and engineering. Again, doing so is anti-intellectual and tremendously arrogant.

3. The Radial2 cone. I've written about it here. Other have also addressed this earlier in the thread. Driver specialists with vastly deeper knowhow and economies of scale specify cone materials regularly. Cone materials they make are now so good that well-optimised cones can roll off without discernable breakup. It stretches credulity to think a small cottage industry without specific knowhow or research capability in the subject can do better. Or that it is truly a proprietary formula of their own making.

4. UK construction. The cost and performance for the price is also defended on grounds of artisanal UK production. Yet sophisticated active monitors packing much more features and using vastly more sophisticated design techniques in similar form factors (eg. Neumann KH120A vs P3ESR) are still being made in the UK/Europe (Neumann: Northern Ireland; Genelec: Finland).

My final note would be that just because a speaker relies on evidence-based engineering doesn't mean that the end product is insipid and uniform and less enjoyable (which is implied in your backhanded compliment of Genelec gear). One enjoys music, not the equipment through which it is transduced. In fact, there is a huge variety of well-engineered designs covering various design formats that comply much better than the likes of Harbeth to what is established, while proposing their own solution to the questions that remain contestable for want of evidence. That these questions remain contestable does not mean that every speaker design, regardless of how backward it is, should be legitimately considered an equal option to well-engineered speakers. It also does not mean that each of these speakers will all sound the same to each other. Different dispersion widths/shapes, bass extension, max SPL, size requirements, intended listening spots, all cause variations.

But they are united in aspiring to smooth dispersion at the very least, which has established effects in:

(1) a broader sweet spot;
(2) more stable, consistent performance across different rooms because we've removed one major variable - significantly different timbre from the speaker at different angles versus the direct sound;
(3) better performance in adverse setup conditions and sub-optimal room treatment. The human ear integrates early reflections into a single auditory event; that is to say, indistinguishable from the direct sound as a discrete echo. However, reflections that greatly differ in sound signature are integrated together and perceived as colouration. A controlled dispersion speaker does not have major aberrant differences between the reflected and direct sound and hence the integration has less colouration to it.
(4) Allow for predictable room treatment. One wouldn't need to fine-tune room treatment to be especially absorptive over the narrow band of mismatch, which requires extensive measurement time to optimise in-room.
(5) Are critical to good imaging. The reason why horizontal directivity is important is because our ears are co-located pretty much on the same horizontal plane. The manner through which stereo generates a reasonable illusion of width, depth and scale is through us receiving input from both speakers into both ears, even when there are not much reflections. For instance: the left ear receives the majority of direct sound from the left speaker, but some from the right speaker, which is displaced to the side relative to the left ear. A directivity mismatch means that the sound from the right speaker has additional dips and peaks that detract from the mechanism we use to generate a "phantom centre" and "soundstage".
 
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balletboy

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It is a laughably backward design. You need an education on the subject. Alan Shaw, like Rob Watts of Chord, is a technically-competent engineer using his skill not to push the frontier, but to defend the hill they choose to die on: handicapping themselves with rationally-indefensible design choices and then being economical with the truth. Let's not conflate that with actual performance, where disproved by empirical evidence. There are a few broad claims to justify Harbeth-style designs by its apologists:

1. Downplaying or wilful ignorance of off-axis behaviour. The SHL5+ linked above shows a massive dispersion mismatch. Many details remain contestable in the vagaries of in-room reproduction. But consistent, smooth dispersion isn't. Pursuing it is consistent with how human hearing functions. To pick Harbeth is to be wilfully ignorant - one could even say anti-intellectual - in the face of this evidence, arrogating that your ears do not function like that of any other human being, claiming that your anecdotal experience supersedes decades of acoustics and auditory research.

What's contestable is how broad this range of smooth dispersion should be, and whether the transition from the optimal range should be smoothly fading or a hard boundary. But Harbeth, in dismally failing even the basic premise of smooth dispersion that precede these legitimate questions, fail to engage them. This article is the first stop to understand why. I have quoted the salient paragraph in my earlier post. It is tremendously intuitive should one step out of the bubble of cognitive dissonance one inhabits in being an apologist for antiquated design. Once this is done, the act of pretending Harbeths to be acoustically state-of-the-art or even high-performance based on anecdotal experience is extremely disingenuous. Peer-reviewed research in authoritative journals have long documented the flaws of anecdotal experience (See Section 3: "Biases in Affective Judgments"). Please don't conflate confounding variables such as the mythology or story Alan Shaw claims with claims of acoustic performance. It is all the more insidious because unlike, say Audio Note, which rely on blatant mysticism, Harbeth's story is superficially evidence-based. It just uses a carefully-curated and cultivated version of outdated evidence from BBC research that has long been superseded, or simply does not address questions such as dispersion behaviour that were not known at the time or beyond their means to properly test.

2. The BBC thin-wall design. Dudley Harwood was an experimental genius. Let's get that out of the way lest one think otherwise. But a thinking man like Harwood would have been acutely aware of hewing closely to his original experimental questions and design requirements. The thin-wall solution was a balanced solution for technology of the time, rugged usecase, budget considerations, ease of manufacturing, portability, and a modicum of experimentally-derived resonance control through relatively-controlled listening tests to help reduce obvious enclosure-related colourations. The frontier has moved a lot since then. In the early 90s, it became possible to directly measure the cabinet radiation independently of the driver radiation (ie. the share of colouration imparted by the cabinet), a technique that Harwood did not have access to. By the 2000s, B&W (which has other flaws unrelated to cabinet design) could use 3D models to accurately simulate enclosure vibration and optimise for it. Similar techniques are in use at KEF, as well as Neumann and Genelec. Before you say it, these techniques are not perfect, but have been refined for so long that we trust it for vastly more critical applications like space travel and ballistics. And the models are unequivocal: smooth edgeless enclosures, achievable only by materials such as cast aluminium or bent ply, are superior on numerous fronts: diffraction, reflection, and cabinet resonance for a start. The sound radiation by the drivers is, in every way, less perturbed. So there cannot be tenable counter-arguments founded on mere anecdotal experience (as apologists like you are wont to wield) against established empirical research and engineering. Again, doing so is anti-intellectual and tremendously arrogant.

3. The Radial2 cone. I've written about it here. Other have also addressed this earlier in the thread. Driver specialists with vastly deeper knowhow and economies of scale specify cone materials regularly. Cone materials they make are now so good that well-optimised cones can roll off without discernable breakup. It stretches credulity to think a small cottage industry without specific knowhow or research capability in the subject can do better. Or that it is truly a proprietary formula of their own making.

4. UK construction. The cost and performance for the price is also defended on grounds of artisanal UK production. Yet sophisticated active monitors packing much more features and using vastly more sophisticated design techniques in similar form factors (eg. Neumann KH120A vs P3ESR) are still being made in the UK/Europe (Neumann: Northern Ireland; Genelec: Finland).

My final note would be that just because a speaker relies on evidence-based engineering doesn't mean that the end product is insipid and uniform and less enjoyable (which is implied in your backhanded compliment of Genelec gear). One enjoys music, not the equipment through which it is transduced. In fact, there is a huge variety of well-engineered designs covering various design formats that comply much better than the likes of Harbeth to what is established, while proposing their own solution to the questions that remain contestable for want of evidence. That these questions remain contestable does not mean that every speaker design, regardless of how backward it is, should be legitimately considered an equal option to well-engineered speakers. It also does not mean that each of these speakers will all sound the same to each other. Different dispersion widths/shapes, bass extension, max SPL, size requirements, intended listening spots, all cause variations.

But they are united in aspiring to smooth dispersion at the very least, which has established effects in:

(1) a broader sweet spot;
(2) more stable, consistent performance across different rooms because we've removed one major variable - significantly different timbre from the speaker at different angles versus the direct sound;
(3) better performance in adverse setup conditions and sub-optimal room treatment. The human ear integrates early reflections into a single auditory event; that is to say, indistinguishable from the direct sound as a discrete echo. However, reflections that greatly differ in sound signature are integrated together and perceived as colouration. A controlled dispersion speaker does not have major aberrant differences between the reflected and direct sound and hence the integration has less colouration to it.
(4) Allow for predictable room treatment. One wouldn't need to fine-tune room treatment to be especially absorptive over the narrow band of mismatch, which requires extensive measurement time to optimise in-room.
(5) Are critical to good imaging. The reason why horizontal directivity is important is because our ears are co-located pretty much on the same horizontal plane. The manner through which stereo generates a reasonable illusion of width, depth and scale is through us receiving input from both speakers into both ears, even when there are not much reflections. For instance: the left ear receives the majority of direct sound from the left speaker, but some from the right speaker, which is displaced to the side relative to the left ear. A directivity mismatch means that the sound from the right speaker has additional dips and peaks that detract from the mechanism we use to generate a "phantom centre" and "soundstage".

"It is a laughably backward design. You need an education on the subject."

Wow, enter a conversation with something so spectacularly condescending and expect me to read further? I think I'll make a coffee, put some music on and take the moderator's advice per the post above.
 

Mnyb

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"It is a laughably backward design. You need an education on the subject."

Wow, enter a conversation with something so spectacularly condescending and expect me to read further? I think I'll make a coffee, put some music on and take the moderator's advice per the post above.

If you can read past "You need an education on the subject" it's a very good post . It would be a bit childish not to.

Btw why is that condesending I need an education on the subject as on most subjects in this world . I'm an EE but that does not automatically makes me a master of all kinds of engineering ?

Thats a common fallacy amongst very competent people , because your are smart and very good at something . Then suddenly all of ones opinions on everythting should be held in the same regard ?
 

Frank Dernie

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who the hell would trust this company to make their own woofers? they have zero experience compared scan speak, seas, vifa or whoever. but nice argument to bump up the price.
:facepalm:
I suppose supreme ignorance isn't all that rare, but the company started because nobody was making drive units that were good enough (for the BBC or Dudley Harwood).
It is entirely possible that some of the big manufacturers make drivers as good as this nowadays, though I doubt it.
FWIW their P3ES was built using the best 5" unit on the OEM market that they could find (at the time) and is a nice speaker, I have a pair, but they decided to make their own driver for it in the end, making it the P3ESR, which has audibly less colouration but is much more expensive to make.
The one thing Harbeth have a peerless experience in is making low colouration drivers.
Also lossy cabinets.
One reason why I am still sceptical about spinorama and FR being the only thing that matters. It does not match my (50+) year) experience.
 
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Willem

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I agree that some contributions are consistently rude.
My preference for main speakers is and remains the modern Quad electrostats, that are also used by some of the most respected classical recording engineers, and for a reason. My desktop speakers are Harbeth P3ESRs and I think they are excellent.
But no speaker is remotely perfect, so every speaker design is a bunch of compromises. The best specific mix of them cannot be anything other than a personal taste. Unlike with electronics the range of possibly relevant variables is much greater.
 

direstraitsfan98

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It is a laughably backward design. You need an education on the subject. Alan Shaw, like Rob Watts of Chord, is a technically-competent engineer using his skill not to push the frontier, but to defend the hill they choose to die on: handicapping themselves with rationally-indefensible design choices and then being economical with the truth. Let's not conflate that with actual performance, where disproved by empirical evidence. There are a few broad claims to justify Harbeth-style designs by its apologists:

1. Downplaying or wilful ignorance of off-axis behaviour. The SHL5+ linked above shows a massive dispersion mismatch. Many details remain contestable in the vagaries of in-room reproduction. But consistent, smooth dispersion isn't. Pursuing it is consistent with how human hearing functions. To pick Harbeth is to be wilfully ignorant - one could even say anti-intellectual - in the face of this evidence, arrogating that your ears do not function like that of any other human being, claiming that your anecdotal experience supersedes decades of acoustics and auditory research.

What's contestable is how broad this range of smooth dispersion should be, and whether the transition from the optimal range should be smoothly fading or a hard boundary. But Harbeth, in dismally failing even the basic premise of smooth dispersion that precede these legitimate questions, fail to engage them. This article is the first stop to understand why. I have quoted the salient paragraph in my earlier post. It is tremendously intuitive should one step out of the bubble of cognitive dissonance one inhabits in being an apologist for antiquated design. Once this is done, the act of pretending Harbeths to be acoustically state-of-the-art or even high-performance based on anecdotal experience is extremely disingenuous. Peer-reviewed research in authoritative journals have long documented the flaws of anecdotal experience (See Section 3: "Biases in Affective Judgments"). Please don't conflate confounding variables such as the mythology or story Alan Shaw claims with claims of acoustic performance. It is all the more insidious because unlike, say Audio Note, which rely on blatant mysticism, Harbeth's story is superficially evidence-based. It just uses a carefully-curated and cultivated version of outdated evidence from BBC research that has long been superseded, or simply does not address questions such as dispersion behaviour that were not known at the time or beyond their means to properly test.

2. The BBC thin-wall design. Dudley Harwood was an experimental genius. Let's get that out of the way lest one think otherwise. But a thinking man like Harwood would have been acutely aware of hewing closely to his original experimental questions and design requirements. The thin-wall solution was a balanced solution for technology of the time, rugged usecase, budget considerations, ease of manufacturing, portability, and a modicum of experimentally-derived resonance control through relatively-controlled listening tests to help reduce obvious enclosure-related colourations. The frontier has moved a lot since then. In the early 90s, it became possible to directly measure the cabinet radiation independently of the driver radiation (ie. the share of colouration imparted by the cabinet), a technique that Harwood did not have access to. By the 2000s, B&W (which has other flaws unrelated to cabinet design) could use 3D models to accurately simulate enclosure vibration and optimise for it. Similar techniques are in use at KEF, as well as Neumann and Genelec. Before you say it, these techniques are not perfect, but have been refined for so long that we trust it for vastly more critical applications like space travel and ballistics. And the models are unequivocal: smooth edgeless enclosures, achievable only by materials such as cast aluminium or bent ply, are superior on numerous fronts: diffraction, reflection, and cabinet resonance for a start. The sound radiation by the drivers is, in every way, less perturbed. So there cannot be tenable counter-arguments founded on mere anecdotal experience (as apologists like you are wont to wield) against established empirical research and engineering. Again, doing so is anti-intellectual and tremendously arrogant.

3. The Radial2 cone. I've written about it here. Other have also addressed this earlier in the thread. Driver specialists with vastly deeper knowhow and economies of scale specify cone materials regularly. Cone materials they make are now so good that well-optimised cones can roll off without discernable breakup. It stretches credulity to think a small cottage industry without specific knowhow or research capability in the subject can do better. Or that it is truly a proprietary formula of their own making.

4. UK construction. The cost and performance for the price is also defended on grounds of artisanal UK production. Yet sophisticated active monitors packing much more features and using vastly more sophisticated design techniques in similar form factors (eg. Neumann KH120A vs P3ESR) are still being made in the UK/Europe (Neumann: Northern Ireland; Genelec: Finland).

My final note would be that just because a speaker relies on evidence-based engineering doesn't mean that the end product is insipid and uniform and less enjoyable (which is implied in your backhanded compliment of Genelec gear). One enjoys music, not the equipment through which it is transduced. In fact, there is a huge variety of well-engineered designs covering various design formats that comply much better than the likes of Harbeth to what is established, while proposing their own solution to the questions that remain contestable for want of evidence. That these questions remain contestable does not mean that every speaker design, regardless of how backward it is, should be legitimately considered an equal option to well-engineered speakers. It also does not mean that each of these speakers will all sound the same to each other. Different dispersion widths/shapes, bass extension, max SPL, size requirements, intended listening spots, all cause variations.

But they are united in aspiring to smooth dispersion at the very least, which has established effects in:

(1) a broader sweet spot;
(2) more stable, consistent performance across different rooms because we've removed one major variable - significantly different timbre from the speaker at different angles versus the direct sound;
(3) better performance in adverse setup conditions and sub-optimal room treatment. The human ear integrates early reflections into a single auditory event; that is to say, indistinguishable from the direct sound as a discrete echo. However, reflections that greatly differ in sound signature are integrated together and perceived as colouration. A controlled dispersion speaker does not have major aberrant differences between the reflected and direct sound and hence the integration has less colouration to it.
(4) Allow for predictable room treatment. One wouldn't need to fine-tune room treatment to be especially absorptive over the narrow band of mismatch, which requires extensive measurement time to optimise in-room.
(5) Are critical to good imaging. The reason why horizontal directivity is important is because our ears are co-located pretty much on the same horizontal plane. The manner through which stereo generates a reasonable illusion of width, depth and scale is through us receiving input from both speakers into both ears, even when there are not much reflections. For instance: the left ear receives the majority of direct sound from the left speaker, but some from the right speaker, which is displaced to the side relative to the left ear. A directivity mismatch means that the sound from the right speaker has additional dips and peaks that detract from the mechanism we use to generate a "phantom centre" and "soundstage".
Great post. One thing that doesn’t get talked about a lot and is a real problem, I would know, having owned Harbeth speakers, is that they fail miserably playing music loudly. They do not pass the Tom Sawyer test, that’s for sure.
 

carlob

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There are some measurements posted on this thread (as attachments), if I go with Newport Test Labs results they look not too shabby to me and certainly not able to warrant such an harsh criticism. Shouldn't we discuss objective data? Seems to me that q3cpma has some sort of personal issue with Shaw or Harbeth.

As a disclaimer: I own and like Harbeths but I just also bought a pair of Revel F208 that will be shipped to me in the coming days.

Screenshot 2020-04-16 at 09.39.49.png
 

Ilkless

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There are some measurements posted on this thread (as attachments), if I go with Newport Test Labs results they look not too shabby to me and certainly not able to warrant such an harsh criticism. Shouldn't we discuss objective data? Seems to me that q3cpma has some sort of personal issue with Shaw or Harbeth.

As a disclaimer: I own and like Harbeths but I just also bought a pair of Revel F208 that will be shipped to me in the coming days.

View attachment 58918

Off-axis data was linked in my post, and can readily be found online, such as from Stereophile. All of them show major dispersion mismatch at crossover, even if the on-axis/listening window is decent.
 

Trouble Maker

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If you can read past "You need an education on the subject" it's a very good post . It would be a bit childish not to.

Btw why is that condesending I need an education on the subject as on most subjects in this world . I'm an EE but that does not automatically makes me a master of all kinds of engineering ?

Thats a common fallacy amongst very competent people , because your are smart and very good at something . Then suddenly all of ones opinions on everythting should be held in the same regard ?

Basically, a bunch of people up at the peak.
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That wear these shirts.
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P.S. I'm also an engineer, and trust me, there is probably very little you should trust me on... except for what to drink, I'm always right there. ;)
P.P.S. I still stand by my opinion that these speakers are not good looking, not as ugly as most 'Studio Monitors' though.
 

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Ilkless

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It is entirely possible that some of the big manufacturers make drivers as good as this nowadays, though I doubt it.

FWIW their P3ES was built using the best 5" unit on the OEM market that they could find (at the time) and is a nice speaker, I have a pair, but they decided to make their own in the end which has audibly less colouration but is much more expensive to make.
The one thing Harbeth have a peerless experience in is making low colouration drivers.
Also lossy cabinets.

Scanspeak, SEAS, SB Acoustics, Skaaning and (now) Purifi would like to disagree.
 

thewas

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I suppose supreme ignorance isn't all that rare, but the company started because nobody was making drive units that were good enough (for the BBC or Dudley Harwood).
Wasn't KEF the only company producing the LS3/5a drivers back then?
 

Thomas savage

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Thats a common fallacy amongst very competent people , because your are smart and very good at something . Then suddenly all of ones opinions on everythting should be held in the same regard ?
It's audiophiles in a nut shell , it's worse when they think their financial success makes their unsubstantiated opinion somehow more valid .. we don't have too much of this thankfully.

The high end audiophile is the worst for this , it goes a long with the ' well you don't know what good sound is because you don't goto classical concerts 3 times a week like I do '

There's a whole cultural snobbery they used to hide their ignorance.

Anyway, can we get back to the measurements and OP. Let's try and keep all forms of snobbery to a minimum, that includes intellectual snobbery.

And then there's inverted snobbery..so the same attitude but served from the opposite side of the court. Unfortunately we have a bit of that .

Cheers
 

thewas

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Personally I have no problems at all with people buying Harbeths (as long they don't use them for mastering) and can even understand "old school" audiophiles doing so, Harbeth, Spendor and some other companies have a traditional approach in the engineering and design of loudspeakers which is mainly based on the BBC research of the 60s and 70s and possibly reminds them of the good old days like also a Morgan car or Harley bikes does, although all are outdated from technical point of view. They are warmly and euphonically voiced which can be seen also at the measurements of the Monitor 30 here (tilted/warm PIR with a BBC presence dip) and that can help when listening at poorer older recordings. Of course they are not cheap but on the other hand the high price and manufacturing in a small company in the UK still as well as the personal contact with the people behind them gives them a good feeling.
 

tuga

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