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I don't understand the obsession with DR meters

StevenEleven

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Any musicians in this thread? How about drummers? Or if not a drummer, ever stand by a drum kit being played?
Which drum sound do you prefer in this demonstration? The ones that sound lively or the the ones that sound neutered?


I’m not much of a musician, but I‘ve played right beside and in front of the drum kit probably hundreds of times. You don’t want any of that in your living room.

Someone above said it right. . . A good tune is a good tune. As a practical matter, a real world situation, what is the DR when you are listening to a nice tune quietly on a portable radio? I’m not technical so I truly don’t know. 5 or 6 dB? You can’t enjoy that?

A good tune is a good tune.
 

mitchco

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Well, my point was not how loud, but rather how dynamic...

I agree, a good tune is a good tune, but I have heard "good tunes" that are so badly crushed, it is no longer a good tune :( Sucked the life that makes the music emotional and enjoyable. I wish folks had the opportunity to hear full dynamic range that one hears over the control monitors in a recording studio and then compare the same once the recording has been "mixed and mastered." It is an ear opening experience.

Given the incredible dynamic range that is available to virtually everyone, there is no excuse for crushed mixes and masters. Put the DR control into the hands of the consumer so if I want full dynamic range so it sounds like the band is in the room with me, I can have it. And at a flip of a switch, I can also lower the dynamic range so I can listen to it quietly on a portable audio system. The tech is there and has been for decades...
 

Darkweb

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That last Tame Impala record still sounded pretty good with a squashed DR thanks to all the reverb fx. It still has some space and not totally in your face. They are few and far between though and that forward sound is fatiguing to me in general.

Whoever thinks metal needs to sound this way should compare the original RATM debut vs. the anniversary edition that is squashed. It robs the music of its impact completely.
 

Darkweb

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Another squashed production I enjoyed was QOTSA-Songs for the deaf. It felt like the compression was a key part of that album’s experience.
 

WesParker

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This is a strange conversation. I don’t believe musicians set out to write songs with any level of DR in mind. So what you have left is music that is recorded loud and with compression or music that is recorded with the full range of the instruments/effects still in tact. If you want your music louder, that’s why there is a volume knob. I’d be very surprised if anyone ever enjoyed a compressed version of a track compared to full range when volume matched. So it’s not that the goal is high DR, it’s that all else being equal, generally higher DR is better.

Anecdotally, I recently had a “rock out session” with a coworker who is about your age (I have about a decade on you). We listened to tracks for about 3 hours of things that In general were at least acceptably recorded, then we starting branching off into a lot of his growing up favorites. They were nearly unlistenable (he mentioned it before I said anything) due to the compression.
 

StevenEleven

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This is a strange conversation. I don’t believe musicians set out to write songs with any level of DR in mind. So what you have left is music that is recorded loud and with compression or music that is recorded with the full range of the instruments/effects still in tact. If you want your music louder, that’s why there is a volume knob. I’d be very surprised if anyone ever enjoyed a compressed version of a track compared to full range when volume matched.

Sure they would, IMHO. There are absolutely classical albums where there is not enough compression, tracks with prominent drums need some compression, some ensembles need compression so that balance of the instrumentation is practical for home listening. It’s a matter of degree, IMHO. I would guess in most cases at least some small degree of compression is going to help the mix.

As I think @mitchco alludes to, lower DR recordings may very well sound nicer at low volumes, and in his view the technology is readily available to accommodate DR to different listening levels. If you listen at low levels to a super high DR recording some of the softer parts of the music just kind of go missing or drop out or are impractically quiet, IME.
 

mitchco

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For rock, pop, alt, etc., I feel there is a happy medium as Dennis @Blumlein 88 has already alluded to, DR12 or thereabouts has nice dynamic range, there is some quiet versus loud, enjoyable in the car as well as the big home rig and whatever personal portable system is your fancy. A good compromise for everyone.

Mastering engineer Bob Katz has proposed the K-System as a standard and I think most mixers and mastering engineers have unofficially accepted this, including myself - 100% agreed with Bob's approach. Folks may want to peruse Bob's honer roll of well mastered pop CD's to get a sense of what makes a good dynamic recording that conveys a sense of liveliness and emotion to the actual music.. Here is a partial list I use for evaluating systems because a) since most are from the 80's, I know them all to well across a wide variety of sound systems and b) they have some actual dynamics that brings the music alive :)


Music with Dynamic Range.jpg


Yah, Dad rock from the 80's, what are ya gonna do. I like Alt the best and for those that listen know the DR is compromised and that is my point, it does not have to be that way and can sound better. I recently saw Black Rebel Motorcycle Club and The Dandy Warhols at the Commodore in Vancouver. While it was ear plug loud, the show did have dynamics that were intrinsic to how the band played each of their songs. That artistic element is wiped out by the heavy hand of dynamic range compression. That's my complaint and easily fixed with some education.

In the "no quiet versus loud" article linked in the first paragraph, there is a quote from an Oasis film where the band is panicking over the sound of their first album – it’s not loud enough. They can’t find their sound, and after a couple of tries, they get Owen Morris to come in and produce. One can hear/see on the video that they were using a box “that made the sound twice as loud, without going into digital distortion.” That folks is a compressor. In fact, one can read the reference to it, “… and heavily compressed the final mix, to an extent he admitted was "more than would normally be considered 'professional'". This was 1994, just reaching the pinnacle of crushed sound in 1995.

And it has been shite ever since IMO. There are exceptions who get what Bob Katz has specified. But based on the Alt music collection I have with 50% mastered in the last decade, its far and few between of what it could be...
 

UliBru

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Create an allpass IIR filter with e.g. f=60 Hz and Q=0.7 and apply it to a heavily compressed music track, e.g. Prodigy - Diesel Power with DR=5.
You get a resulting track with increased DR=12. So the DR has improved pretty much.
But the modification is just phase shifts. The compression is still there and I would wonder if you hear dynamic differences.
So IMO the DR value is an indicator only. It is not a well-defined criteria for quality.
 

KSTR

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Create an allpass IIR filter with e.g. f=60 Hz and Q=0.7 and apply it to a heavily compressed music track, e.g. Prodigy - Diesel Power with DR=5.
You get a resulting track with increased DR=12. So the DR has improved pretty much.
But the modification is just phase shifts. The compression is still there and I would wonder if you hear dynamic differences.
So IMO the DR value is an indicator only. It is not a well-defined criteria for quality.
Uli, is this telepathy? I was just about to make the same comment.
99% of all the DR meters are completely wrong in how they calculate the "DR value", whatever that is. Any meter that is judging peak sample values is broken by design. With hard-clipped kick drums and snares one can easily find an allpass filter that triples(!) the peak values. Yet, true DR hasn't changed a bit and the perceived sound change is minimal (as expected from moderate excess phase).
Proper psychoacoustic modelling must be used. Period. Intelligent judgement of short-term RMS value patterns, proper adaptive time-constants, all the bells and whistles.

Bottom line : Forget any DR rankings, they're as useless as the SINAD ranking. The only thing that one can say that a recording with a very low DR value has some chances to actually sound more compressed than one with a high value. Recordings with similar DR values can have extremely different percieved dynamics from live-like to totally squashed. Proper heavy but still "transparent" compression and soft-limiting, fitting the artistic expression of the music, is a special art not every tracking and mastering engineer is capable of.
 

maty

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...And at a flip of a switch, I can also lower the dynamic range so I can listen to it quietly on a portable audio system. The tech is there and has been for decades...

And other to switch between a profile without harmonics and another with H2 at -73 dB or other value to listen to small acoustic groups playing jazz, folk...
 

KSTR

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Any musicians in this thread? How about drummers? Or if not a drummer, ever stand by a drum kit being played?
Which drum sound do you prefer in this demonstration? The ones that sound lively or the the ones that sound neutered?
The compressed (rather, clipped) one, clearly. In the uncompressed version the drums peak out way too much to be tolerable and sound very uneven. It doesn't fit the rest of the music. Of course the clipped version sounds technically broken, but that depends on the skills of the mastering engineer. One certainly can compress it down for the same reduction but without the drums being distorted that much (the first two snare hits, notable).
And yes, I'm a rhythm section guy (bass player) and lost quite a bit of my hearing from standing close to uncompressed drum kits. Ear protection plugs help avoid this only little bit contrary to common belief.
 
OP
Fluffy

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About those bright recordings..............hehehe............those are quite often the inevitable side effect of compression and limiting which artificially increase harmonics leading to a bright sound. Some geniuses even boost to brighten and then try to re-balance with EQ. BTW, most brightness is below 10 khz. Above 10 khz you hear air and coldness.
Actually I did not say "bright" at any point. I meant boosted higher treble, in the 10khz+ range, where the hi-hats live. Overly boosted high hats drive me crazy sometimes. And this has nothing to do with compression, there are compressed albums that sound dark. It's just either EQ applied to the track to give it more "air" and on the way elevate all the piercing harshness of the hi-hats, or just the hi-hats themselves mixed to loudly into the track.


Any musicians in this thread? How about drummers? Or if not a drummer, ever stand by a drum kit being played?
Which drum sound do you prefer in this demonstration? The ones that sound lively or the the ones that sound neutered?

This demonstration is very misleading. First of all, I've played drums myself, I know what their dynamics are – and there're brutal. It's very hard to create a good mix between drums and any other instruments playing in the same space, because they take over everything. There are two ways to go at it – the first is to lower their volume in the mix, but then they lose their impact. The second way, which is what happens 99% of the time, is to compress them.

This is the second point – drums are different than other instruments, in the fact that most of their volume comes in short transient sounds. The initial hits, or the attack, are the peaks that you see in the waveform, and after that there is some level of sustain that contains the rest of the harmonics and resonances of the drum or cymbal. If you leave the attack untouched, you indeed get these dramatic peaks that exceeds anything else around them, even if the rest of the instruments are also playing loud. by compressing the heck out of those peaks, you actually lowered the drums in volume. You can hear it clearly in the demonstration – after the compression, the drums sound significantly lower in the mix. Actually, I would say that initially there were too high in the mix, and that's why it's a misleading demonstration.

If they were mixed properly, you wouldn’t need to cut them off so much to get a balanced mix. I think I would prefer something between the first and the second version – drums that aren't so loud to take over everything, but still have good energy in the mix overall.

edit: Just to clarify, I mean that you want to compress the peaks in order to lower the volume of the drums, while preserving their sustain, meaning the resonances. An uncompressed tom hit would sound very thin and clunky, and compression brings out it's tone and makes it full.
Uli, is this telepathy? I was just about to make the same comment.
99% of all the DR meters are completely wrong in how they calculate the "DR value", whatever that is. Any meter that is judging peak sample values is broken by design. With hard-clipped kick drums and snares one can easily find an allpass filter that triples(!) the peak values. Yet, true DR hasn't changed a bit and the perceived sound change is minimal (as expected from moderate excess phase).
Proper psychoacoustic modelling must be used. Period. Intelligent judgement of short-term RMS value patterns, proper adaptive time-constants, all the bells and whistles.

Bottom line : Forget any DR rankings, they're as useless as the SINAD ranking. The only thing that one can say that a recording with a very low DR value has some chances to actually sound more compressed than one with a high value. Recordings with similar DR values can have extremely different percieved dynamics from live-like to totally squashed. Proper heavy but still "transparent" compression and soft-limiting, fitting the artistic expression of the music, is a special art not every tracking and mastering engineer is capable of.
This is part of the issue. Those rankings are so general that they can't not be misleading. Trusting a DR meter to tell you if it's a good or bad recording is a fool's errand, and there seems to an audiophollery belief system attached to it, that automatically discards anything that is not up to an arbitrary standard. It's basically like saying "if it's not on tubes/vynil/tape it sounds bad". I have not seen convincing evidence that DR has anything to do with sound quality, and I doubt most people actually prefer ultra-dynamic recordings (that are actually easier to make – just record it and don't apply any effects to it) to low DR but expertly mixed ones.
 
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UliBru

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Instead of DR calculations I prefer to take a look to the wave form with a wave editor:

Prodigy1.png


This track clearly looks heavily compressed, it is the already mentioned Diesel Power by Prodigy.
Whereas Bell Painting by Marilyn Mazur has a DR value of 26 ! and it looks like

BellPainting.png


I guess that calculating the ratio of the green to black colored area in the pictures above would also result in a simple dynamic range value.
And possibly it tells more.
So simply check the pictures and you can easily compare them with the perceived sound quality.
 
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Fluffy

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So simply check the pictures and you can easily compare them with the perceived sound quality.
You'll need to define what is sound quality first, because it's different for each person. I would take the prodigy album any day, simply because I actually like prodigy, and this other guy's music bores me to death.
 

UliBru

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You'll need to define what is sound quality first, because it's different for each person. I would take the prodigy album any day, simply because I actually like prodigy, and this other guy's music bores me to death.
My full agreement :) I define sound quality for me by myself. And I also look to the pictures by myself. And finally I draw my own conclusions.
Anyway it is interesting that quite often I find some relationship between enjoyment and picture.
The logic is simple. There is music and there is recording quality. So
  • good music + good recording = we are hunting for
  • good music + bad quality = still accepted because we love the music
  • bad music + good recording = produced for the bin, throw away
  • bad music + bad recording = throw away immediately
 

Sal1950

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The point I would like to make is are we attempting to create a High Fidelity recording or not?
I've never been to a modern heavy metal concert but I imagine even they have higher dynamics live than they do on disc.
Live music whether electronic or acoustic has a very wide dynamic range, without it, it loses it's life and illusion of reality.
Music for listening in a loud environment like a car can benefit from a reduced DR, but that's not what you want at home on an expensive rig you assembled to create a high fidelity reproduction of live music. There has to be better answer than crushing everything you can purchase to a DR6!
We've seen it happen everywhere, witness what was done to the Jackson Browne - Running on Empty album when it was remastered for "High Definition".
Original CD
58cd98bdced39_roeorig.JPG.214bf1bdd34b255d6eda99e29a64ee95.JPG

HDTracks 24/192 "High Definition" Download
roe.JPG.855e345de7366f59fe4502845975b23c.JPG


Are you freakin kidding me, This is supposed to be a "premium release" that you pay extra for ??? I don't think so.
What a shame the labels are ruining some of the great recordings from the past and then have the balls to charge us more for them. All in the name of better playback on inferior equipment in a poor environment. :mad:
What happened to the music industry of the 50-80s that constantly worked to make better, more realistic recordings ie "The Absolute Sound"
I'm actually shocked by the people here saying "so what, what deference does it make?". Shame on you for accepting this practice.
 

RayDunzl

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Any musicians in this thread? How about drummers? Or if not a drummer, ever stand by a drum kit being played?
Which drum sound do you prefer in this demonstration? The ones that sound lively or the the ones that sound neutered?

Yes, no, yes, and the original (of course).
 
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Fluffy

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The point I would like to make is are we attempting to create a High Fidelity recording or not?
Not.

First of all, high fidelity is a misleading term, as I've said already. Fidelity implies that the recording should be accurate in relation to… something. What is that thing? If a completely acoustical sound is captured by a microphone and not processed at all, then there is a way to know how much fidelity there is in a system that tries to recreate that sound. in all other cases, there is no "original" sound source to have fidelity for.

All music today is recorded and mixed in a way that does not even attempt to maintain the acoustical fidelity of a performance. That is not a criticism – this is a description of reality. The reason it is done like that is because live acoustic music is very limited. Instruments mask each other and collide in their spectrum, any reverbs or echo in the space makes everything wash out and blend together, and volume levels of different instruments are rarely well matched. In the old days before recordings were possible, people worked around these limitations – to play a tympani together with a violin, you need several violins to play in unison to try and match the tympani's volume. Masking and washing out of many instruments playing together was used to create a unified sound field – for a lack of better option. If you wanted to hear individual instruments play together, you needed to use very few instruments, and sit very close (like string quartets).

With the advent of recording techniques and digital sound processes, we are no longer bound by the limitations of acoustical instruments. A single guitar can be as loud as a drum-set if so desired. There is no real need to limit ourselves to the performance of raw instruments, and thus there is no point in maintaining so-called fidelity. Engineers are close-miking instruments to get the cleanest sound, and then compress, EQ, and add reverb to create a desired sound signature that will fit the music. With these techniques they are able to achieve sounds and mixes that are virtually impossible in a pure untouched live performance. And this is not a bad thing that we should fight against – this is the very nature of the music industry today.

Some of the tools that are employed to achieve these ends are compression and limiting. On the far end of the chain, after the musician has played their tune and the engineer mixed it and the producer was happy and went home, there sits some audiophile and analyzes their hard work with a very basic algorithm that spits out a single number. And for him that single number is the absolute arbiter to whether the people that made the music did a good job or not. This is utterly ridiculous.

I've never been to a modern heavy metal concert but I imagine even they have higher dynamics live than they do on disc.
As for heavy metal – albums always sound better than performances, no doubt. It's almost impossible to create a live mix that maintain separation and coherence with a lot of loud, often natively distorted instruments, that are played aggressively. You go for the shows not for sound quality (which is 99% shit), but to see your heroes play live and cheer for them. there have been shows of major bands that sounded so awful that I had to complete some of the instrument parts in my head from memory.

Here is an example of a metal album the had been remastered and it's DR reduced:

BG.png

The remaster is much more coherent and engaging than the original recording. There have probably been some EQ added which made most of the improvement, by I don't feel any difference in terms of dynamics. It's just sound tighter and more awesome.

On the other hand, Testament re-released an album with higher DR than the original:
tes.png

And for me it sounds thinner and less engaging. The bass became distant and not immediate like the original release, and the cymbals became piercing and obnoxious.

And for the record, just so no-one can claim otherwise, I'm not listening to these things in the car or in noisy environment. These are my observation listening to my main system, or through my high fidelity headphones.
 

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I’m not much of a musician, but I‘ve played right beside and in front of the drum kit probably hundreds of times. You don’t want any of that in your living room.

Someone above said it right. . . A good tune is a good tune. As a practical matter, a real world situation, what is the DR when you are listening to a nice tune quietly on a portable radio? I’m not technical so I truly don’t know. 5 or 6 dB? You can’t enjoy that?

A good tune is a good tune.
Thats the whole point in a car stereo portable radio Adel albums play/sound great also in my car till the same CD is played on a reference set at home my wife was horrified how bad it sounded. I have high measured albums that sound as thin/bad as possible the same album mastered better with a bit lower Dr rating sounded better. But in general almost 95% of mine albums has an high natural DR rating because it is music where you want to hear the interaction between the band members till it is almost intimate you can't have that if the voice is as loud as the bass or guitar (so a low DR rating) as lots of albums from Adel (also Amy Winehouse) for instance so again they have made a choice to let it sound good in a car stereo not on a reference set. It is not so that a high or low DR ratings are good or bad it is a choice IMO.
 
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