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Parlor trick exposed

Blumlein 88

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SIY,

Wow.

I actually tend to give the tweaky companies some benefit of the doubt, allowing that they actually believe in their own product. After all, even if a cable or tweak doesn't actually "work" the person making the device can be just as influenced by their own bias as the customer who thinks he hears a difference. So I think a lot of the tweaky products are designed and sold by people who think they actually work.

That said...it can be hard to escape the feeling that some of them know what they are doing. The evasiveness just becomes too hard to ignore.
Someone noted awhile ago that in the early days some were sincere. But the companies that are just selling stayed in business while true believers for the most part went out of business. So what's left are the most successful con men.
 

MattHooper

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Someone noted awhile ago that in the early days some were sincere. But the companies that are just selling stayed in business while true believers for the most part went out of business. So what's left are the most successful con men.

I have to say I'm still skeptical of the proposition that all tweak and cable-sellers are insincere. Though certainly some must be. There's no way many haven't noticed what a great racket the cable and tweak scene is, with the obscene mark-ups to be had. It's not surprising that everyone-and-their-mother seem to offer "high end cables" including even speaker, amp companies.

But still...to someone in the subjectivist paradigm, you always vet the success of a change subjectively, and if you think you hear a difference, it's true. We know that's how it works for countless audiophiles, and there's no reason why tweako or cable-making people wouldn't fall to honest error in the same paradigm. "I think this may be causing the problem, here's my new tweak/cable I've made trying to fix the problem, let's audition it. And whatddya know? It SOUNDS BETTER!" Time to confidently bring this thing to the market...for others who will judge the results by the same method. Self-perpetuating.
 

Blumlein 88

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I have to say I'm still skeptical of the proposition that all tweak and cable-sellers are insincere. Though certainly some must be. There's no way many haven't noticed what a great racket the cable and tweak scene is, with the obscene mark-ups to be had. It's not surprising that everyone-and-their-mother seem to offer "high end cables" including even speaker, amp companies.

But still...to someone in the subjectivist paradigm, you always vet the success of a change subjectively, and if you think you hear a difference, it's true. We know that's how it works for countless audiophiles, and there's no reason why tweako or cable-making people wouldn't fall to honest error in the same paradigm. "I think this may be causing the problem, here's my new tweak/cable I've made trying to fix the problem, let's audition it. And whatddya know? It SOUNDS BETTER!" Time to confidently bring this thing to the market...for others who will judge the results by the same method. Self-perpetuating.
Okay, I'm not definitively saying every single one is and none are genuine true believers. But they are a rarity at this point. It is self perpetuating as you say.

I'd say among large established companies they might be comparable to various tele-evangelists who have a net worth of more than $100 million.
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-47675301 Article about preachers getting rich off of poor Americans. Lengthy article and showing how hard it is to get true believers to change behavior even when they know they've been had.

Now are those preachers true believers or con men? I'd think most started out that way. I'd think some still are. But the way they operate actually isn't distinguishable from someone who said, "damn, what a nice easy con. I can get rich easy, do nothing, and these folks will support me with literally religious fervor. I can do no wrong." Maybe the preachers have been conditioned and don't realize what they are doing. But what works is awful scammy. The cable business has some similarity.
 

shanecoughlan

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Random thought: what if we looked at creating a series of objective, simple (and non-emotional) threads explaining why power cables, sound cables and digital cables make no difference to your experience?
I am suggesting this because there are a lot of charged posts across the internet but it is rare to find gentle and measured material that seems immediately trustable if you are looking at audio for the first time.
Not impossible, of course! There are some good posts in places like Medium or personal blogs (+ the science on Xiph), but our forum seems a great place to collect intro knowledge that points people in the right direction.
 

Sal1950

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I have to say I'm still skeptical of the proposition that all tweak and cable-sellers are insincere.
In the big picture what difference does it make? Whether it's the manufacturer or the media, putting forth obscenely expensive tweaks/cable as legitimate products without doing any level of scientific testing shows a lack of integrity at a level that could be considered criminally fraudulent.
 

zalive

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Okay, I'm not definitively saying every single one is and none are genuine true believers. But they are a rarity at this point. It is self perpetuating as you say.

I'd say among large established companies they might be comparable to various tele-evangelists who have a net worth of more than $100 million.
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-47675301 Article about preachers getting rich off of poor Americans. Lengthy article and showing how hard it is to get true believers to change behavior even when they know they've been had.

Now are those preachers true believers or con men? I'd think most started out that way. I'd think some still are. But the way they operate actually isn't distinguishable from someone who said, "damn, what a nice easy con. I can get rich easy, do nothing, and these folks will support me with literally religious fervor. I can do no wrong." Maybe the preachers have been conditioned and don't realize what they are doing. But what works is awful scammy. The cable business has some similarity.

There's is another possibility for the audio cable industry.
That cables do make a difference, that sonic difference they make is audible (at least by some) yet subtle, but for some reason ABX methodology didn't quite work out to statistically prove it.

This has nothing to do with a parlor trick. It's quite possible they did the scam (though hard to believe they actually did it because of the risk they put themselves in). Proving it happened is another thing of course.
 

SIY

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That cables do make a difference, that sonic difference they make is audible (at least by some) yet subtle, but for some reason ABX methodology didn't quite work out to statistically prove it.

Nor has any other method of controlled listening testing. And the wire peddlers avoid it like the plague with special pleading that sounds remarkably like this; "The same methods that show exquisite human sensitivity to frequency response, level, tempo, pitch, localization, noise, and data compression coincidentally all fail when testing phenomena that engineering principles and careful measurement suggest should be inaudible." Huh.

So... if you need to peek to hear it, you can't hear it. If you don't have a financial interest in the fancy wire scam, then you have been badly duped by the slimeballs that do. There is no third possibility.
 

Blumlein 88

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There's is another possibility for the audio cable industry.
That cables do make a difference, that sonic difference they make is audible (at least by some) yet subtle, but for some reason ABX methodology didn't quite work out to statistically prove it.

This has nothing to do with a parlor trick. It's quite possible they did the scam (though hard to believe they actually did it because of the risk they put themselves in). Proving it happened is another thing of course.

Have you seen or read about the AQ youtube video with its fraudulent examples. I saw it and downloaded it for myself. AQ claimed it was an errant dealer who did it etc. I wouldn't doubt that was the plan, to have plausible deniability.

The various demos described where they change tracks for the same song etc. etc. There is no good reason to do it that way unless you are up to something.

As for something audible to some yet subtle, sorry that pig don't fly. There simply isn't anything in the signal going on for there to be any effect. There is no there there.

BTW, my own experience in ABX testing is you sometimes get to the point you don't believe you are hearing a difference. Believe you are guessing only to find you are hearing something that is discernible blind. I know the popular conception is something subtle you hear the testing misses. I think it is the other way around. When you no longer easily hear a difference the testing shows you are perceiving one. That coupled with experiences of having gut felt genuine clear differences that evaporate in an instant when you don't know the sources tells me there is nothing to your supposition.
 

agtp

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In the big picture what difference does it make? Whether it's the manufacturer or the media, putting forth obscenely expensive tweaks/cable as legitimate products without doing any level of scientific testing shows a lack of integrity at a level that could be considered criminally fraudulent.

Following your reasoning, which I agree with, let’s consider another scenario.

Members/followers are sold a belief in which they are required to give 10% of their income, for life (obscenely expensive?). This payment is not optional, like tweak/cable purchases, but required.

No scientific testing/basis/confirmation/verification for the belief claims.

Would you also consider this criminally fraudulent activity by the leaders of such organizations?

This is a rather damning admission, Sal. Based on your reasoning, the conclusion is indisputable.
 
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JJB70

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I'm not sure what there is to say about cables that would convince the believers, and for the manufacturers and their various hangers on there is far too much money in purveying snake oil to ever desist. The sellers are quite clever in grabbing onto a few truths or half truths to provide a foundation of sorts which can then be distorted and added onto by hyperbole, spin and in my opinion outright lies. For example, cables do make a difference, the cable has to be suitable for its intended duty (such as gauge), however that's not a cost issue (not at audio level, it's a little different when you get into stuff like HV transmission cables) and the cheapest cable out there of the right gauge will be quite sufficient. Connectors do make a difference, a good, tight connection (but not so tight you'll never get it off except by destroying something) is better in terms of the electrical link between cable and connection. Good quality connectors should also be more durable, but again you really don't have to pay much for good connectors. The infamous skin effect is real, and not a fiction dreamt u by audio cable makers, however it is misrepresented to a point by which I'd consider most of the nonsense spouted about the skin effect by audio cable makers to be disingenuous at best and should not be believed. As on so many other subjects Peter Aczel was right when he summed up cables thus:

Cables—that’s one subject I can’t discuss calmly. Even after all these years, I still fly into a rage when I read “$900 per foot” or “$5200 the pair.” That’s an obscenity, a despicable extortion exploiting the inability of moneyed audiophiles to deal with the laws of physics. The transmission of electrical signals through a wire is governed by resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C). That’s all, folks! (At least that’s all at audio frequencies. At radio frequencies the geometry of the cable begins to have certain effects.) An audio signal has no idea whether it is passing through expensive or inexpensive RLC. It retains its purity or impurity regardless. There may be some expensive cables that sound “different” because they have crazy RLC characteristics that cause significant changes in frequency response. That’s what you hear, not the $900 per foot. And what about the wiring inside your loudspeakers, inside your amplifiers, inside your other components? What you don’t see doesn’t count, doesn’t have to be upgraded for megabucks? What about the miles of AC wiring from the power station to your house and inside your walls? Only the six-foot length of the thousand-dollar power cord counts? The lack of common sense in the high-end audio market drives me to despair.

There are certain companies who exist on scamming the gullible and from what I can see offer nothing whatsoever of any value to anyone other than their owners who are creaming it in (eg. Nordost). There are others who if they want to can make a good product but prefer to make the easy bucks by selling snake oil cables etc, for example I was actually impressed by the AQ headphones they made which have now been discontinued. I was very friendly with a chap who owned a hi-fi store and who sold me quite a lot over the years and always gave me terrific service. He sold some of this rubbish, I used to joke about it and sort of question why a good shop would sell stuff which was just over priced tat and he always had the honesty (to me at least, probably not to people buying said tat) that he was a shop owner in it to make a living and if his customers wanted that crap he'd sell it to them.
 

Sal1950

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Following your reasoning, let’s consider another scenario.

Members/followers are sold a belief in which they are required to give 10% of their income, for life (obscenely expensive?). This payment is not optional, like tweak/cable purchases, but required.

No scientific testing/basis/confirmation/verification for the belief claims.

Would you also consider this criminally fraudulent activity by the leaders of such organizations?

This is a rather damning admission, Sal. Based on your reasoning, the conclusion is indisputable.
If they're dumb enough to sign up for an organization as such that's their problem.
I don't know of any audiophool organization that requires anyone to sign a life contract.
God Bless you little heart.
 

JJB70

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I always think that inferring that something is less stupid on the basis that other things are also stupid isn't much of an argument. Going to court and saying theft is no big deal because other people steal wouldn't be much of a legal defence.
 

agtp

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I always think that inferring that something is less stupid on the basis that other things are also stupid isn't much of an argument. Going to court and saying theft is no big deal because other people steal wouldn't be much of a legal defence.

I agree.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as

If your comment is in response to my post, I think you misunderstand my position. I’m questioning the consistency of others. For example, criticizing belief in pixies while simultaneously holding a belief in fairies.
 

pozz

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Has anyone read Waldrep's book? http://musicandaudioguide.com/

It's kind of split in its motivations (50% hi-rez explanation/50% mythbusting), but is good overall. Those with multichannel systems will enjoy the test tracks that come with it. Plenty more examples of industry idiocy there.

Also, the classic Blue Jeans reply to Monster: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/legal/mcp/
 

jsrtheta

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The astounding physics behind Synergistic Research: "To better understand how cable burn-in effects [sic] the music you hear, it may be helpful to think of each frequency traveling through a conductor as a different trail or path through a forest. If you are traveling through the woods for the first time, and no trail exists, your going will be fraught with difficulty as you encounter rocks, thick bushes and dense forest. However, as you travel the same paths over and over, your going gets easier and easier. This is why cables seem to gain performance over time, and can actually lose performance or burn-in if they are not used in your system for long periods..."

Sheesh.
 

Sal1950

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Blumlein 88

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The astounding physics behind Synergistic Research: "To better understand how cable burn-in effects [sic] the music you hear, it may be helpful to think of each frequency traveling through a conductor as a different trail or path through a forest. If you are traveling through the woods for the first time, and no trail exists, your going will be fraught with difficulty as you encounter rocks, thick bushes and dense forest. However, as you travel the same paths over and over, your going gets easier and easier. This is why cables seem to gain performance over time, and can actually lose performance or burn-in if they are not used in your system for long periods..."

Sheesh.
So at a level that matters to an electron copper grows bushes and deep forests if it sits dormant? Seems like the proper approach would be to connect 1000 volts across a dead short and blast a super smooth super highway for electrons to traverse. Instant burn in. Maybe I should make that product. The Electron Path Pacifier. Does an instant and total burn in for a few seconds every time you turn on your audio system.
 
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