Why people still use tube amps when there are plenty of tubes already used in the making of music

[dtaylo1066]

I am not sure a consumer good being pervasive is necessarily a good metric. McDonald's is pervasive. Eat there 3 times a day and...

I would surmise that tubes might make up 1 or 2% of systems in the audiophile community, and 1/1000 of 1 percent in all music listening.

But I would not have believed 25 years ago that vinyl recordings and turntables at all price ranges would be making a comeback.

Of course there are many guitarists who will only play through a tube amp.

At the end of the day, all recorded music and the listening thereof is a grand illusion. If one wants to be a purist, one would only listen to unamplified, live music.

 

[MattHooper]

Perhaps the tubes provide some compensation for your listening environment which could be too dry for your taste.

No my room is perfect for my taste (and I can modulate the reflectivity to taste).

 

[Bob from Florida]

All this talk about "clipping". Seriously, when's the last time you turned your amp up high enough to drive it into clipping??? From my experience, most systems would be run at an effective 10 to 20 watts for normal listening with 8 ohm speakers. I understand that people running subs on media systems might exceed this routinely but for the man sitting in a comfy chair, listening to a jazz record, he isn't blasting it to clipping levels, far from it.

Depends on speaker sensitivity, dynamic range of recording, and desired average volume at listening position. Because of the way our ears work needs 10 times power to sound twice as loud. The real question is not so much whether your amp is clipping but how is it recovering from the clipping? Bad recovery is what you hear.

 

[egellings]

Why do these topics keep coming?

A. Provide any remote evidence tubes are pervasive in producing music
B. Provide any remote evidence tubes are in any way pervasive in home audio systems these days

Slap me. I use home-brewed tube mono-blocks & preamp. Twisted up the OPTs myself. One little fart in a storm.

 

[MattHooper]

Why do these topics keep coming?

Er...this is an audiophile forum? And there are many audiophiles still using tube amps?

B. Provide any remote evidence tubes are in any way pervasive in home audio systems these days

Well of course tubes aren't pervasive in "home audio systems" if you mean regular folk, non-audiophiles. But this forum is generally devoted to discussing audiophile
subjects and products directed at audiophiles.

Sure it's the case that a majority of audiophiles are using solid state. But you aren't actually unaware that there remains a significant number of audiophiles using tube amplification, are you?

Evidence? Less interest on this site (though Amir has reviewed some tube amps), but you'll find plenty using tube amps outside this site, on many other forums. Have you ever watched any of the many audio show videos? Tons of tube amps all over the place. For a reason: tube amps are still selling. Peruse the systems of audiophiles on other sites, for instance the Steve Hoffman forum "show us your systems" threads, and you'll quickly encounter tube amps. One of the most recent pages:

Post photos of your systems/rooms here! (Part 15)

made some updates last month :). [IMG]

forums.stevehoffman.tv

Even on just that page, 3 systems with tube amplification.

Peruse the Audiogon member "virtual systems" and you'll see plenty of tube amps. Lots of talk on reddit audiophile about tube amps. Just about any audio forum. Tube amps are constantly reviewed in many audio magazines.

Look at all the tube amps being exchanged in the audiophile second hand market, on any given day:

Tube | New & Used Hi-Fi For Sale

Shop hi-fi Tube on the largest high-end audio marketplace. Find deals on new and used hi-fi equipment online.

www.audiogon.com

Tube Amplifiers Used and New Classifieds : Buy, Sell and Trade in America - US Audio Mart

Used Tube Amplifiers classifieds in America. . Buy, sell, and trade used, second hand, and new Tube Amplifiers with other Americans on America's largest hifi, stereo, and home theater classifieds site!

www.usaudiomart.com

And of course, some of us ASR members use tube amps!

So I find it somewhat puzzling that you'd be baffled why the subject comes up, much less question that it's still a relevant subject in terms of audiophiles using tube amps in their systems.

 

[mhardy6647]

Er...this is an audiophile forum? And there are many audiophiles still using tube amps?

As best I can tell, this is not an "audiophile" forum per se.

 

[MattHooper]

As best I can tell, this is not an "audiophile" forum per se.

Well, that seems to be getting in to semantics. "Audiophile" does not have to equate to "suckers buying woo-woo products." I think most here would meet the criteria of the Wikipedia definition:

An audiophile is a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction.

That would describe most who'd remain active members on a forum like this, wouldn't you say? The interest in high fidelity/high quality sound reproduction for audiophiles tends to entail an interest in the gear that would provide that experience. There has to be some distinction between an enthusiast, who was interested enough in audio gear - I mean the whole site is essentially about audio gear! - to join this community, and regular folk who couldn't give a damn about audio gear and have other interests. "Audiophile" is pretty much the designated term.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

It is perfectly scientific to use a tube as a gain element in an amplifier. It simply comes down to tradeoffs.

 

[pablolie]

Er...this is an audiophile forum? ....

So I find it somewhat puzzling that you'd be baffled why the subject comes up, much less question that it's still a relevant subject in terms of audiophiles using tube amps in their systems.

You misunderstood. My post contains zero anti-vinyl-tube-etc content, it just shows irritation with the "analog phenomenon" being addressed in new ways when the discussion -as always and evidenced here- will not go anywhere. The OP parts from the premise of stating tubes (or tube effects) are prevalent in recording, which would be news to me.

 

[dtaylo1066]

Slap me. I use home-brewed tube mono-blocks & preamp. Twisted up the OPTs myself. One little fart in a storm.

Not only a tube head but a DIYer also, of two mono amps and a pre-amp, and winding your own iron, me thinks that is worthy of a 2x4 across the frontal lobe three times. Not only do you crave distortion but you create it with your own hands. Repent. Repent.

 

[MattHooper]

You misunderstood. My post contains zero anti-vinyl-tube-etc content, it just shows irritation with the "analog phenomenon" being addressed in new ways when the discussion -as always and evidenced here- will not go anywhere. The OP parts from the premise of stating tubes (or tube effects) are prevalent in recording, which would be news to me.

I don't wish to misunderstand you. But it was puzzling that you wondered why the subject comes up, and especially asked for evidence tube amplification was at all "pervasive" in home audio systems these days, when clearly tube amps remain popular among audiophiles. So naturally it's going to keep coming up.

And threads "going nowhere" is a subjective assessment. I don't find these threads go nowhere. People get to express their ideas on the subject, which is what communities of enthusiasts are generally about.

As I just wrote on the Reddit audiophile forum, where someone just posted about getting in to tube amps and loving it, granting tube supplies continue, there will always be a place for tube amps among audiophiles. We still have "spec wars" with solid state amps that decreasing distortion levels, when we reached practical transparency long ago.
We've heard essentially perfectly neutral, transparent amplification, and yet some of us drift to tubes because they can be additive - add things you just don't get with a transparent neutral solid state amp. And that can be preferred. (All the usual ASR caveats presumed in all of that).

 

[egellings]

Not only a tube head but a DIYer also, of two mono amps and a pre-amp, and winding your own iron, me thinks that is worthy of a 2x4 across the frontal lobe three times. Not only do you crave distortion but you create it with your own hands. Repent

Not only a tube head but a DIYer also, of two mono amps and a pre-amp, and winding your own iron, me thinks that is worthy of a 2x4 across the frontal lobe three times. Not only do you crave distortion but you create it with your own hands. Repent. Repent.

True, but at least I get to adjust the bouquet of the distortion farts to my liking.

 

[pablolie]

I don't wish to misunderstand you. But it was puzzling that you wondered why the subject comes up, and especially asked for evidence tube amplification was at all "pervasive" in home audio systems these days, when clearly tube amps remain popular among audiophiles. So naturally it's going to keep coming up.

In the usual form: people just state what they like. None of the big questions that are posed get an answer - because no one has it.

And threads "going nowhere" is a subjective assessment. I don't find these threads go nowhere. People get to express their ideas on the subject, which is what communities of enthusiasts are generally about.

So you feel the original question posed by the OP has been answered in any of the replies? Nothing subjective when reading through the topic show that (a) it hasn't (b) it's rather not even been the topic discussed (as this exchange shows, too).

As I just wrote on the Reddit audiophile forum, where someone just posted about getting in to tube amps and loving it, granting tube supplies continue, there will always be a place for tube amps among audiophiles. ...

Here we go, that isn't what was supposed to be discussed here, but that's the way these discussions go.

My track record in never interfering with personal preferences is pretty established at this point.

 

[SIY]

Tubes clip more gracefully than most solid state
amps,

I hate disagreeing with Bob, but here I have to. With VERY few exceptions, tube amps have horrible overload recovery after clipping. Blocking distortion is far more audible than clipped peaks. Morgan Jones goes into this in great detail in his books; likewise, Norman Crowhurst wrote some excellent articles about it. Morgan and I both design our amps to avoid blocking, and as a result, they can play louder than their power would suggest. Most solid state amps I've tested have nearly instantaneous recovery from overload.

 

[MattHooper]

So you feel the original question posed by the OP has been answered in any of the replies?

Sure. My reply directly answered the OP's question.

The OP was asking a basically conceptual question: why people still use tube amps when there are plenty of tubes already used in the making of the music? His point being that even if tube amp distortion was pleasing, he thinks there's already tube distortion found in plenty of recordings. And so...then...why add more tube amp distortion in your amplifier? He concludes it doesn't make sense, and that just using neutral amplification makes more sense.

My reply spoke directly to his question. The answer being, that insofar as a tube amp can alter the sound through speakers, it can still be very pleasing, and that I...like many other audiophiles...find the effect beneficial across all sorts of recordings. So the hypothesis he's working on is sort of misguided, in terms of understanding why some of us still use tube amps.

It's a bit like the "why would anyone want to introduce coloration in their system" shibboleth that often gets tossed around here. And...I think there are good answers to that question. The fact they keep coming up don't mean they aren't answers.

 

[MattHooper]

I hate disagreeing with Bob, but here I have to. With VERY few exceptions, tube amps have horrible overload recovery after clipping. Blocking distortion is far more audible than clipped peaks. Morgan Jones goes into this in great detail in his books; likewise, Norman Crowhurst wrote some excellent articles about it. Morgan and I both design our amps to avoid blocking, and as a result, they can play louder than their power would suggest. Most solid state amps I've tested have nearly instantaneous recovery from overload.

Completely anecdotal and sighted but....that tracks with my personal experience. When I substituted something like a Bryston 4B3 for my CJ tube amps, my impression when I really cranked orchestral work with massive, complex passages, that the sound was a bit cleaner, less congested with the Bryston. Not only did it seem to untangle the very dense combinations of low brass and woodwinds and double bass in some passages, which seemed a bit muddied with my tube amps, but blaring trumpets and high woodwinds sounded cleaner. It was the tubes that seemed to be adding a bit of fuzz or strain, if anything, to the sound. Though...again...pretty much worthless for establishing anything with confidence.

 

[SIY]

Completely anecdotal and sighted but....that tracks with my personal experience. When I substituted something like a Bryston 4B3 for my CJ tube amps, my impression when I really cranked orchestral work with massive, complex passages, that the sound was a bit cleaner, less congested with the Bryston. Not only did it seem to untangle the very dense combinations of low brass and woodwinds and double bass in some passages, which seemed a bit muddied with my tube amps, but blaring trumpets and high woodwinds sounded cleaner. It was the tubes that seemed to be adding a bit of fuzz or strain, if anything, to the sound. Though...again...pretty much worthless for establishing anything with confidence.

During my development of the Red Light District tube amp, I used an oscilloscope to see the blocking effects in several amps I was testing. There was a cool little app which would generate sine waves at two levels, alternating, and after setting the gain so that the higher level one would clip, the effect of blocking on the lower level one was dramatically visible. The RLD recovered cleanly and, unsurprisingly, it sounded the cleanest at high levels. I note with amusement that a group of Irish audio geeks ran comparisons of several tube amps and ranked the RLD at the bottom because "it sounded just like solid state."

 

[boxerfan88]

Coming in a bit late to this party ... I thought I'd like to share my perspective.

So why simply add another tube amp in the playback make the sound "warm, rich, analog" and without the tube amp it's suddenly "cold, harsh, thin and digital"? There are like numerous tubes in the music making chain so many "Tube flavors" are already there from the beginning, if musicians and audio engineers cosider use them produce better sound. Most of the time transparent playback system is the best to show music's original intension and no new layers of "tube effects" needed.

I'm pretty much aligned with what you have shared. In my recent few years of active participation in the audiophile scene.
It is my personal view that in the audiophile scene, the participants generally fall under these 4 categories:

1. musicphiles - those who enjoy music as produced through a very good system (including collecting CDs, Vinyls, Reel Tapes)
2. audioequipmentphiles - those who enjoy playing with different equipment/component (including tube rolling, cartridges, cables, accessories, software plugins, multiple speaker sets, etc.)
3. audiojeweleryphiles - those who enjoy owning very nice looking equipment (beautiful VU meters, tube glow, nicely shaped speakers, classy looking equipment, cables the size of small snakes)
4. audioluxphiles - those who enjoy owning unique/statement pieces of equipment that are typically out of reach for most except the rich.

I started at category 1, and now living somewhere inside category 2, and hoping to migrate back to category 1.

Back to OP, my opinion is that majority of those playing with "tube flavors" are either in category 2 or category 3... that is my guess.

 

[jooc]

I saw a very expensive headphone amp looks like this recently and I don't get why people love tube amps so much.

Popular opinion is they added unique "tube sound" or some harmonic/intermodulation distortion in the music so there's more "warmth" in the sound and also sometimes because they change of frequency response. But actually there are just tons of this "tube effect" already added in the chain of audio engineering, so the "warmth" and "richness" are already there in the music, regardless of whether you are using a tube amp or not.

Take the chain in a friend's studio as example, starting from the microphone. they use tube mics like Neumann M149, AKG C12, etc.. which added some tube flavor so human voice or instruments already pass in processed from tubes. For FET mics like Neumann U87, mic preamps and channel strips like Avalon design VT-737 and some SPL tube preamps with basic EQ will take the responsibility to add tube sound. You can basically add some of these effects and overdrive with a very cheap presonus TubePre without using priced gears.

In the mixing some tracks will be sent to analog gears for processing like Teletronix LA-2A tube compressor which is very widely used, so again, tubes. There are also tons of tube simulation in the plugin as well, preamps, compressors, limitors, EQs, many can contain some emulated tube effects.
View attachment 340203
You can manually add tube effects with plugins like Fabfilter Saturn. Just choose whatever tube you want to add and how much in the software:

Let's say you've finished making your music and in the mastering, you may use some mastering EQ like Manley Massive Passive Mastering like this and guess what, tube.

So why simply add another tube amp in the playback make the sound "warm, rich, analog" and without the tube amp it's suddenly "cold, harsh, thin and digital"? There are like numerous tubes in the music making chain so many "Tube flavors" are already there from the beginning, if musicians and audio engineers cosider use them produce better sound. Most of the time transparent playback system is the best to show music's original intension and no new layers of "tube effects" needed.

Forgive the stupid question, but - these are software plug-ins, but plug-ins to what? For example there are Photoshop plugins where other companies make 'plug ins' to Adobe Photoshop, are these like that and if so what's the master software they plug in to? The sweetwater website seemed to imply that these can be standalone apps on your PC, is that the case? Thanks!

 

[MattHooper]

During my development of the Red Light District tube amp, I used an oscilloscope to see the blocking effects in several amps I was testing. There was a cool little app which would generate sine waves at two levels, alternating, and after setting the gain so that the higher level one would clip, the effect of blocking on the lower level one was dramatically visible. The RLD recovered cleanly and, unsurprisingly, it sounded the cleanest at high levels. I note with amusement that a group of Irish audio geeks ran comparisons of several tube amps and ranked the RLD at the bottom because "it sounded just like solid state."

I still love the look and concept of your Red Light District tube amp!

I recommend anyone interested look it up. SIY's writing is clean and clear, educational and entertaining, even for an electronics dunce like me!