Not trying to be arrogant here, but who listens to this?

[computer-audiophile]

A difficult subject, but one can try to understand it.

Here's an anecdote: When I was old enough to quit my own business, we moved to a picturesque little town - Görlitz. Modern art doesn't have it so easy here.

But there is always a way. In a small art gallery I invited to an evening where an electronic symphony was played. It was composed by Prof. Hiroaki Minami, who is hardly known here in Germany. He founded the Japanese Society for Electronic Music in 1992. He also composes contemporary pieces in the classical style. I told about how we went to see him, which took us to a small, very remote island in the Sea of Japan, where he now lives in great seclusion. Although it was a completely new experience for the audience, the performance was very well received. There was a lively discussion afterwards and the audience shared their impressions. The lady in the photo is the owner of the art gallery.

 

[Multicore]

Let's see if we can get peacefully back to the topic of the thread. Some people don't stick to it. It seems to me that they even want to make this "elitist" art form disappear. Or the discussion about it.

Those of us who enjoy weird music that lots of people don't even recognize as music have the job to explain why we think it is. If Sal has something to contribute about how hip hop is the kind of music that isn't music, I say let's hear it. Assertions about the reality of hip hop musiacians and their instruments doesn't get us very far in my opinion but it's not my case to present. I think it's all the more interesting in this context where we can go from late Messaien solo piano, to Xenakis Mists, to Borah Bergman piano improvisation to whatever Pink Floyd's Sysyphus, Pt. 2 represents.

Whatever! I also find Penderecki exciting. I have some of his music in my library.

Do you know the story of how early Penderecki sounds like early Xenakis? Penderecki heard it on the radio, a criminal activity for him at the time, and imitated it. He had no idea of the completely unique methods Xenakis had for constructing the music. Of course Penderecki turned pretty conservative later. All the same, clearly a very musical man.

Funny enough: While rummaging through my record collection, I came across a Stockhausen record with the piece "Music in the Belly" for Percussion de Strasbourg, whose live performance I wrote about above. I didn't know I had it. I'll put the record on my turntable later.

Let me know if you can understand anything from listening to this recording. I can't. It's pretty enough if you like that kind of thing but it doesn't take the almighty Stockhausen to accomplish that.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Let me know if you can understand anything from listening to this recording. I can't. It's pretty enough if you like that kind of thing but it doesn't take the almighty Stockhausen to accomplish that.

Well, I certainly could, but not in the short form that fits in the ASR.
A podcast of an hour or so might be appropriate.

For me, it's a well-rounded story that I can relate to and enjoy well within a larger context. It is charged with many meanings. In general, I have a soft spot for percussion. Stockhausen is not new to me, as I have attended several performances of his works over the decades. Of course, it helps that I have seen the performance in question live and even received an introduction beforehand. The vinyl record, by the way, is accompanied by detailed liner notes where I can read excerpts from the score, the cast, the direction, etc.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Do you know the story of how early Penderecki sounds like early Xenakis? Penderecki heard it on the radio, a criminal activity for him at the time, and imitated it. He had no idea of the completely unique methods Xenakis had for constructing the music. Of course Penderecki turned pretty conservative later. All the same, clearly a very musical man.

This was new to me, thanks.

 

[Sal1950]

If Sal has something to contribute about how hip hop is the kind of music that isn't music, I say let's hear it. Assertions about the reality of hip hop musiacians and their instruments doesn't get us very far in my opinion but it's not my case to present.

In the words of Justice Potter Stewart, in his concurrence to the majority opinion, created the standard whereby all speech is protected except for "hard-core pornography".
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I hear it, and rap/hipityhop involved in this case is not that."

Those of us who enjoy weird music that lots of people don't even recognize as music have the job to explain why we think it is. If Sal has something to contribute about how hip hop is the kind of music that isn't music, I say let's hear it.

How "Weird" does it have become before it's not "music"?
Explain that please.

Not really. I'd say that even DSOTM, much in ASR news at the moment, is a counter example, music made in a supremely technological way.

Sorry wrong. I've seen them live 3 times, they come on-stage and create 95% of what you hear right in front of you with their talent at playing instruments. David Gilmour's Comfortly Numb is widely considered the worlds greatest guitar solo, Take a few minutes to learn Real Music by A Real Musician

 

[Sal1950]

Real Musicians playing Real Instruments and making Real Music. About 100 of them.

 

[Doodski]

In the words of Justice Potter Stewart, in his concurrence to the majority opinion, created the standard whereby all speech is protected except for "hard-core pornography".
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I hear it, and rap/hipityhop involved in this case is not that."

How "Weird" does it have become before it's not "music"?
Explain that please.

Sorry wrong. I've seen them live 3 times, they come on-stage and create 95% of what you hear right in front of you with their talent at playing instruments. David Gilmour's Comfortly Numb is widely considered the worlds greatest guitar solo, Take a few minutes to learn Real Music by A Real Musician

Wowowow... Guitar and laser light show de jour! I was in a nightclub in Las Vegas in a hugeee 1/2 of a geodesic dome with a mish mash of music. There was a awesome laser light show on all through the night and when I got back to the hotel about 8am and took off my dress shirt I was beet red from the dress shirt neckline up and from the cuffs down. It looked like a sunburn.

 

[computer-audiophile]

This Thread is not about popular music I think.

We also go to concerts quite often, but it gives a different picture. (Ensemble Courage at the Festspielhaus Hellerau Dresden in December 2022)

 

[Sal1950]

This Thread is not about popular music I think.

??? I really have no idea, I couldn't call the music played in the OP "Classical" in the truest sense.
Popular in a Classical Style ??? LOL

We also go to concerts quite often, but it gives a different picture.

Not my cup of tea but Good stuff I'm sure. serious musicians there.

 

[Sal1950]

Wowowow... Guitar and laser light show de jour! I was in a nightclub in Las Vegas in a hugeee 1/2 of a geodesic dome with a mish mash of music.

Kool, a local college up in my Chicago hood had a planetarium and would do laser light shows to music on inside of the dome.
Getting good and stoned then spending a few hours there on occasion was about as good as it gets.
Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon was a perennial favorite.

Just checked and apparently it still is !!!
Sat March 4th they're doing the yet unreleased 50th Anniversary mix! Wow.
They always had a great sound system there, I wonder if it's Atmos capable now?
A really GOOD reason to go to College. LOL
Current pricing $4 -8 a show depending on your age,
I'm shocked the pricing is still so low.

Cernan Earth and Space Center | Triton College

Explore the wonders of the universe and the latest discoveries in astronomy, space exploration, and geoscience at the Cernan Earth and Space Center, a unique sp

www.triton.edu

 

[Doodski]

Kool, a local college up in my Chicago hood had a planetarium and would do laser light shows to music on inside of the dome.
Getting good and stoned then spending a few hours there on occasion was about as good as it gets.
Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon was a perennial favorite.

Just checked and apparently it still is !!!
Sat March 4th they're doing the yet unreleased 50th Anniversary mix! Wow.
They always had a great sound system there, I wonder if it's Atmos capable now?
A really GOOD reason to go to College. LOL

Cernan Earth and Space Center | Triton College

Explore the wonders of the universe and the latest discoveries in astronomy, space exploration, and geoscience at the Cernan Earth and Space Center, a unique sp

www.triton.edu

Lol... The geodesic dome science center in Vancouver was offering Pink Floyd shows up till the 2000s from what I remember. The Vancouver planetarium still does Pink Floyd cover shows. Very popular!

 

[computer-audiophile]

To me, it looks as if the core topic of the thread is about to be torpedoed.

 

[Multicore]

How "Weird" does it have become before it's not "music"?
Explain that please.

Imo weirdness has nothing to do with it but I've often had encounters that convinced me that it does for other people. I can't explain it but an example might help. Here's some KK Null. I am familiar with his music and corresponding music scene in Japan. I once played a gig where he was farther up the bill. Some people with no priors in this kind of music simply don't notice that it is music. And some people respond to learning that it is intended as music and has an audience that accepts it as music argue that it is in fact not music or nor "real" music. This, in my experience, is just part of the life of people involved with weird music. This is the context in which I thought it might be interesting to consider your categorizations of hip hop.

I know Pink Floyd's music very well. I bought The Wall 2LP as soon as it was released. As a guitarist I understand Gilmore's accomplishments. I even saw the film when it came out. So when you say,

Take a few minutes to learn Real Music by A Real Musician

I'm still no farther in understanding how come hip hop is an example of not real music made by not real musicians. If you had said that you like Pink Floyd, Alan Parsons and ELP and dislike hip hop that would of course be beyond dispute.

I have tried to answer your question and command to explain. I think we understand each other well enough.

 

[Axo1989]

To me, it looks as if the core topic of the thread is about to be torpedoed.

Some digressions are inevitable. And often fun. Of course I do it too, so perhaps I'm making excuses.

??? I really have no idea, I couldn't call the music played in the OP "Classical" in the truest sense.
Popular in a Classical Style ??? LOL

As @RayDunzl pointed out early in the @Fluffy thread you referred us to 'classical' is sometimes too broad to be meaningful. I think so here: Messiaen would be modernist. JS Bach was baroque. If you mean classical in the truest sense neither qualify. Using the term in the broader sense, both do. But then we must also include avant-garde like Stockhausen and minimalists like Reich. You'd likely not consider certain pieces by the latter two groups as 'music' at all (if we can decode your "real instruments" meaningfully) but your tastes don't in any way set those definitions.

On that definition of 'music' did you listen to the DJ Shadow example? I expect not but try it and consider that while he (aka Josh Davis) is indeed famed for producing a classic of the genre in Endroducing... and the "first completely sampled album" the video posted here is also hip-hop, with real melodies played by real people with real instruments (and brass, no less). Which makes it music again: are your criteria functional or performative?

Creating music by sampling would be inconceivable without the obvious avant-garde precursors (specifically musique concrète) of course. Which was the other part of my point in posting a piece by that artist. Is it music when instruments are played and recorded, but not when they are played and recorded previously? And so on. Also (per the video) aggro old white dudes are pretty hilarious (from a distance).

 

[Axo1989]

Here's some KK Null. I am familiar with his music and corresponding music scene in Japan. I once played a gig where he was farther up the bill.

Damn.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Younger Japanese avant-garde electronic artists have also performed in our home at private house concerts that we organized for our friends. For example, Chikashi Miyama was once with us and played a premiere of a piece that was subsequently performed at the ZKM-Karlsruhe.

Sitting on the right hand side is my friend René Bastian who belongs to an elder generation of composers. He is one of the French pioneers of electronic music, musique concéte, tape music, etc.

 

[Sal1950]

To me, it looks as if the core topic of the thread is about to be torpedoed.

I don't believe so, I think we're right on point with the OP original question.
Whatever the genre, how far does something have to deviate from a "acceptable norm" before it's
no longer ART and just plain crap?

Is this a beautiful artistic painting with REAL value.
Or are a bunch of con artists laughing all the way to the bank.
Right along with the cable snake-oil market?

 

[Axo1989]

I'm still no farther in understanding how come hip hop is an example of not real music made by not real musicians. If you had said that you like Pink Floyd, Alan Parsons and ELP and dislike hip hop that would of course be beyond dispute.

This is what @Sal1950 is saying, but with added bluster and obfuscatory word choice (but as they appear to be ignoring my posts, I'll likely waste less time by returning the favour, pity). I expect you realised that, I'm stating the obvious.

Regarding the question of art vs con, I've never got the point of virtuosity if it's confined to tedious repetition. Art requires realised imagination, virtuosity alone is simply craft.

 

[JaMaSt]

Is this a beautiful artistic painting with REAL value.
Or are a bunch of con artists laughing all the way to the bank.
Right along with the cable snake-oil market?

Would you ask that question of this?

Unité d'Habitation of Berlin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sal1950]

Would you ask that question of this?

What is it, a place for people to live.
Or an object of art?