Extreme Snake Oil

[Sokel]

You know tiles,right?The ones we put on the floor.
It's usually around 50 to 200 euro per m².
Designer ones (like clothes,Gucci,etc) can go up to 2000 per m².
You still walk on them and people who get them don't expect to fly.
Do the math now.

 

[Astoneroad]

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[JayGilb]

Or electrical engineering.

Yes, just because someone has a chemistry degree doesn't mean they understand how electronic circuits work.
I would guess that among all people with advanced degrees, electrical engineers would be the least likely to fall in the "hearing is believing" crowd.

 

[Sokel]

Yes, just because someone has a chemistry degree doesn't mean they understand how electronic circuits work.
I would guess that among all people with advanced degrees, electrical engineers would be the least likely to fall in the "hearing is believing" crowd.

On the other hand we see some of them in diyaudio sharing extensive listening impressions.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I have a background in industrial electronics and instrumentation. I believed this stuff for years. Used my knowledge of circuits to mod gear. Swapped out caps, resistors and wire. Heard a nice improvement almost every time. Shared this with friends they heard and liked the improvements too. I guess I'm just stupid.

In my defense I was an audiophile for years prior to getting instruction and experience in electronics. Somebody said a cap sounded better I knew it measured the same, and it didn't make sense. I installed it and was happy as a clam with how much better it was. Empirical knowledge .........so didn't think about it like I should have. A few accidents and other experiences had me wondering in time. Even after learning a bit about psycho-acoustics I wasn't fully convinced. Tried some various experiments and realized I was a chump all those years. Strange, strange feelings about it for a few months.

What fully convinced me was reading some basic college level texts on sound and hearing suggested by J_J.

Worse I was in mechanical engineering prior to the electronics field. I have no excuses other than being human.

 

[JeffS7444]

Pretty sure that emotional appeal is what drives a lot of high-end sales. I think that some of the brands which have done a very good job of delivering a certain message include Rega and McIntosh, perhaps Nagra and MBL too. Folks may laugh at McIntosh for offering a backlit sign bearing the company logo, but the joke's on them, because the McIntosh vibe has real value, which has survived changes of ownership in the past, and likely will continue to do so in the future..

 

[LouB]

Ok, I'm new here & I understand our ears can only hear so much & electricity is electricity. I'm trying to figure out what "snake oil" your referring too. I'm in the market for a new amp & speakers, budget is 5K. Am I wasting my money, maybe head over to Costco/Target/BestBuy & spend 500 bucks ?
I know (at least I think I know) a 5K system is going kick butt on a 500 system. Does the proverbial "snake oil" come into play the higher the cost ? Are you guys talking about components that measure almost the same but for some reason one cost substantially more by using a badge or some snake oil to insure the buyer is getting something special ?
I'm going to spend more for my amp than if you went spec. to spec. It's going to a Marantz same with speakers there going to be JBL's. Probably in my price range the snake oil guys don't bother !

 

[ahofer]

Exhaustive answer here:

How can bogus claims and inferior audio thrive in a competitive market?

I keep running into the same addlepated thought, here and in other forums. It goes something like this: Market success is the clearest indication of value. Expensive cables must sound better, or people wouldn't pay for them; exotic amplifiers must be better or they wouldn't survive. Even...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Chrispy]

Ok, I'm new here & I understand our ears can only hear so much & electricity is electricity. I'm trying to figure out what "snake oil" your referring too. I'm in the market for a new amp & speakers, budget is 5K. Am I wasting my money, maybe head over to Costco/Target/BestBuy & spend 500 bucks ?
I know (at least I think I know) a 5K system is going kick butt on a 500 system. Does the proverbial "snake oil" come into play the higher the cost ? Are you guys talking about components that measure almost the same but for some reason one cost substantially more by using a badge or some snake oil to insure the buyer is getting something special ?
I'm going to spend more for my amp than if you went spec. to spec. It's going to a Marantz same with speakers there going to be JBL's. Probably in my price range the snake oil guys don't bother !

If that 500 vs 5000 system is differentiated primarily by speakers, it could make sense. Generally tho the "better" snake oil cables cost more than 5000 for a pair.

 

[antcollinet]

Ok, I'm new here & I understand our ears can only hear so much & electricity is electricity. I'm trying to figure out what "snake oil" your referring too. I'm in the market for a new amp & speakers, budget is 5K. Am I wasting my money, maybe head over to Costco/Target/BestBuy & spend 500 bucks ?
I know (at least I think I know) a 5K system is going kick butt on a 500 system. Does the proverbial "snake oil" come into play the higher the cost ? Are you guys talking about components that measure almost the same but for some reason one cost substantially more by using a badge or some snake oil to insure the buyer is getting something special ?
I'm going to spend more for my amp than if you went spec. to spec. It's going to a Marantz same with speakers there going to be JBL's. Probably in my price range the snake oil guys don't bother !

Good question to ask in your current situation.

Things that are *definately* snake oil - things sold as offering improvements in sound quality that they technically *cannot* deliver - starting with magic crystals, moving through cable risers - on to interconnects and other cables - speaker cables after a certain minimum guage. And so on.

I would also include expensive components made of (admittedly) expensive construction with all sorts of stories told about how that construction improves the sound. Think multiple K+ streamers which output a digitial signal to a DAC. They might be beautiful, they might be heavy and constructed from machined billets of aluminium but they perform audibly no better than my £100 raspberry pi streamer. Include "audiophile" network switches and the like here.

Similar for very expensive devices - amplifiers/dacs - sold on the basis of improved sound - whose measurements show they are no better (or much worse) than much lower priced variants from less "boutique" manufacturers. Generally price is a very poor indicator of sound quality.


So where does that leave you.
Your budget of 5000 doesn't go into the "stupid" expensive region - and can definatley buy you a *very* nice sounding system if you pay attention to what really matters. Move from the end of the system closest to your ears.

1 - Spend a large proportion on speakers. I'd say at least half. Choose something that measures well here (recommended)
2 - Amplifier - it is worth paying for power headroom. You can't do much better than the purify eigentakt class D, or the Hypex Ncore as a close substitute. If you really don't want class D, then consider the benchmark AHB2 - but that will take a larger chunk of your budget than makes sense. Consider also powered/active speakers. You may well end up with equivalent sound at a lower cost level.
3 - Dac/streamers/source - choose devices that score in the blue green parts of the sinad charts that have the features and build quality that you like. Don't think you will get better sound by spending more. If you use a CD player with digital out (if you are going CD you should) - similarly you'll not get better sound for more money.
4 - Budget something for DSP/room correction. This along with speaker choice will make the biggest impact in sound quality.
5 - Don't spend any significant money on cables and interconnect. Just basic good build quality is all that is needed here.

 

[dorakeg]

I have a background in industrial electronics and instrumentation. I believed this stuff for years. Used my knowledge of circuits to mod gear. Swapped out caps, resistors and wire. Heard a nice improvement almost every time. Shared this with friends they heard and liked the improvements too. I guess I'm just stupid.

In my defense I was an audiophile for years prior to getting instruction and experience in electronics. Somebody said a cap sounded better I knew it measured the same, and it didn't make sense. I installed it and was happy as a clam with how much better it was. Empirical knowledge .........so didn't think about it like I should have. A few accidents and other experiences had me wondering in time. Even after learning a bit about psycho-acoustics I wasn't fully convinced. Tried some various experiments and realized I was a chump all those years. Strange, strange feelings about it for a few months.

What fully convinced me was reading some basic college level texts on sound and hearing suggested by J_J.

Worse I was in mechanical engineering prior to the electronics field. I have no excuses other than being human.

I just want to say that sometimes, the fun in doing/trying something is more important than the science. I still perform some mods and try out new cables once in a blue moon... It's not about science or what's right or wrong, it's just something I enjoy doing as a hobby.

I am a chump and still is today in audio. To me, it's after all just a hobby and my little personal space. Yes, it sounds stupid but I would say what's important is that I am a professional and a specialist in my field of work and others can depend on me.

 

[dorakeg]

Good question to ask in your current situation.

Things that are *definately* snake oil - things sold as offering improvements in sound quality that they technically *cannot* deliver - starting with magic crystals, moving through cable risers - on to interconnects and other cables - speaker cables after a certain minimum guage. And so on.

I would also include expensive components made of (admittedly) expensive construction with all sorts of stories told about how that construction improves the sound. Think multiple K+ streamers which output a digitial signal to a DAC. They might be beautiful, they might be heavy and constructed from machined billets of aluminium but they perform audibly no better than my £100 raspberry pi streamer. Include "audiophile" network switches and the like here.

Similar for very expensive devices - amplifiers/dacs - sold on the basis of improved sound - whose measurements show they are no better (or much worse) than much lower priced variants from less "boutique" manufacturers. Generally price is a very poor indicator of sound quality.


So where does that leave you.
Your budget of 5000 doesn't go into the "stupid" expensive region - and can definatley buy you a *very* nice sounding system if you pay attention to what really matters. Move from the end of the system closest to your ears.

1 - Spend a large proportion on speakers. I'd say at least half. Choose something that measures well here (recommended)
2 - Amplifier - it is worth paying for power headroom. You can't do much better than the purify eigentakt class D, or the Hypex Ncore as a close substitute. If you really don't want class D, then consider the benchmark AHB2 - but that will take a larger chunk of your budget than makes sense. Consider also powered/active speakers. You may well end up with equivalent sound at a lower cost level.
3 - Dac/streamers/source - choose devices that score in the blue green parts of the sinad charts that have the features and build quality that you like. Don't think you will get better sound by spending more. If you use a CD player with digital out (if you are going CD you should) - similarly you'll not get better sound for more money.
4 - Budget something for DSP/room correction. This along with speaker choice will make the biggest impact in sound quality.
5 - Don't spend any significant money on cables and interconnect. Just basic good build quality is all that is needed here.

I want to add 1 more thing which to me is even more important than speakers, it's the environment. Acoustic treatment (even if minor) does a lot to help to improve sound quality.

 

[Killingbeans]

I'm trying to figure out what "snake oil" your referring too.

Silly cables and interconnects, cable risers, so called "grounding boxes", audiophile mains inlets, audiophile fuses, magical stickers/dots. Just to name a few categories.

Everything that has absolutely no way of doing what's claimed, other than when used in some strange supernatural parallel universe.

And then there's companies like Synergistic Research and Shakti Innovations who take the nonsense and turn it up to 11.

 

[ahofer]

It is not really a shame. It is just being human.

I knew a chemist. Very sciency guy. He had friends with high end gear. He heard the difference, and hearing is believing. He wasn't knowledgable about psycho-acoustics or electronics. Subjectivists sometimes hurl the insult that objectivists think we know all there is no know about hearing. Well real scientists don't think that way. So if you had asked about unlikely things like wire making a difference the chemist probably would assume it was possible to figure it out, but maybe not easy and maybe had never been done. With a detailed explanation he wouldn't have been incredulous. Yet you cannot underestimate the effect personal experience has even when you were fooled. As the saying attributed to Mark Twain goes, "it is easier to fool someone than to convince them they have been fooled".

Before the internet, it was easy to live in an echo chamber where everyone claimed that there were sonic attributes of materials and unmeasurable sound qualities that were still a mystery. From TAS to Stereophile to audio store. It’s harder now.

 

[JSmith]

People pay for snake oil mostly because they have been misled by online information or others not knowing they are passing on the snake oil lifestyle (like some kind of virus). TBH I've never really believed in any of it... as the majority never made any sense from a technical perspective and never has. I absolutely understand why many did and continue to though. I recall an epic power chord battle thread almost 20 years ago where I and others were trying to explain to people that an expensive power cable won't be any different to the stock cable... it went on for years and not once did any of the people saying they heard night and day differences conduct even a simple AB comparison, let alone a properly controlled test.

I just all comes down to marketing and money. Not everyone who buys snake oil is gullible... they are just preyed upon by unscrupulous businesses.


JSmith

 

[DonH56]

Before the internet, it was easy to live in an echo chamber where everyone claimed that there were sonic attributes of materials and unmeasurable sound qualities that were still a mystery. From TAS to Stereophile to audio store. It’s harder now.

After, too... Maybe even easier.

 

[Keith_W]

Yes it is true that a lot of audiophilia is pseudoscience or magical thinking, but you have to see things in perspective. I think it is a relatively harmless alternative belief.

There is pseudoscience that is bad for you and at worst, can kill you: vaccine skepticism, alternative medicine, alternative cancer therapies, fad diets. If you swap your proven chemotherapy for coffee enemas you will die, it is as simple as that.

There are alternative beliefs that is bad for society and will hurt you or cause harm to society in the long term: climate change denial, voodoo economics, anti-GMO, gun control, political and religious extremism or zealotry, magical investment schemes.

Then there are the harmless types of magical thinking. It does not harm anyone, it just makes you look silly. Witchcraft, water divining, belief in UFO's and aliens, vegan extremists, cryptozoology, and some audiophile beliefs.

It is not worth my time hating on people with alternative beliefs on audio. Let them! What harm does it do to you? Then there's another thing I find about subjectivist forums. They do not start threads hating on objectivists. On the whole they are much friendlier places to hang out, even if you may not get much useful information from them.

 

[LouB]

Good question to ask in your current situation.

Things that are *definately* snake oil - things sold as offering improvements in sound quality that they technically *cannot* deliver - starting with magic crystals, moving through cable risers - on to interconnects and other cables - speaker cables after a certain minimum guage. And so on.

I would also include expensive components made of (admittedly) expensive construction with all sorts of stories told about how that construction improves the sound. Think multiple K+ streamers which output a digitial signal to a DAC. They might be beautiful, they might be heavy and constructed from machined billets of aluminium but they perform audibly no better than my £100 raspberry pi streamer. Include "audiophile" network switches and the like here.

Similar for very expensive devices - amplifiers/dacs - sold on the basis of improved sound - whose measurements show they are no better (or much worse) than much lower priced variants from less "boutique" manufacturers. Generally price is a very poor indicator of sound quality.


So where does that leave you.
Your budget of 5000 doesn't go into the "stupid" expensive region - and can definatley buy you a *very* nice sounding system if you pay attention to what really matters. Move from the end of the system closest to your ears.

1 - Spend a large proportion on speakers. I'd say at least half. Choose something that measures well here (recommended)
2 - Amplifier - it is worth paying for power headroom. You can't do much better than the purify eigentakt class D, or the Hypex Ncore as a close substitute. If you really don't want class D, then consider the benchmark AHB2 - but that will take a larger chunk of your budget than makes sense. Consider also powered/active speakers. You may well end up with equivalent sound at a lower cost level.
3 - Dac/streamers/source - choose devices that score in the blue green parts of the sinad charts that have the features and build quality that you like. Don't think you will get better sound by spending more. If you use a CD player with digital out (if you are going CD you should) - similarly you'll not get better sound for more money.
4 - Budget something for DSP/room correction. This along with speaker choice will make the biggest impact in sound quality.
5 - Don't spend any significant money on cables and interconnect. Just basic good build quality is all that is needed here.

Thanks, very nice info. & good point headroom I was thinking 70-80 watts a channel
Speaker budget is about 2.6K Bookshelf style with stand
For some reason (I'm old) I don't want a class D amp I played in a band using them and they really kick but. I'm amazed how light, powerful & clean they are but I just don't like em. I'll take a look at benchmark AHB2 amp. Budget is at about 1500 I was looking at integrated.
DAC was going to a Schitt I think they go for about 150 bucks good reviews here.
I'm also buying a CD player budget maybe 500-600
Turntable (why I don't know) 500-600
I need to look into DSP room correction my Yamaha AV receiver has it. I didn't know it could be bought separate.
Cables and such will just be normal 12ga speaker wire & connectors. Defiantly some large quaintly of snake oil on those items.
I'm no audiophile for sure I worked hard for my money & don't want waste it on snake oil claims. I already have some hearing loss in high freq. one reason I'd like an amp that has EQ (Marantz)
Thanks again & sorry to get off snake oil point.

 

[LouB]

I want to add 1 more thing which to me is even more important than speakers, it's the environment. Acoustic treatment (even if minor) does a lot to help to improve sound quality.

Interesting, we recently moved and my "system" now sounds like crap kinda muddy the in mids & highs. It sounded much better in the old place. The new room is much larger a different shape and very high ceilings. I'll do some research in that area.
Thanks

 

[sam_adams]

Most people with large amounts of disposable income buy high-priced audio gear to either satisfy some 'lifestyle' need or they simply want to make a display of their conspicuous consumption in every way possible. The thinking is that the more they pay for something, the better it will be. They cannot be challenged in this belief because the rationalization is that it costs what it does because it is the best. All qualities are based on price alone.