Can you come up with data for that? Can you put numbers to it, referencing a standard? How do you know that other people hear this same thing? After all, like you said, they sold lots of them.
Same thing. Can you quantify that? Can you give us data? For the second time:
View attachment 231878
Ji
What is the right to freedom of opinion and expression? The right to freedom of opinion is the right to hold opinions without interference, and cannot be subject to any exception or restriction.Can you come up with data for that? Can you put numbers to it, referencing a standard? How do you know that other people hear this same thing? After all, like you said, they sold lots of them.
Same thing. Can you quantify that? Can you give us data? For the second time:
View attachment 231878
Jim
No data at all. But you can see many if not all these stuff in 10k+ and above speaker. Speaker manufacture like Magico just almost made these stuff by themselves. Beside I used to have friends mod speaker using all those premium LCR and the difference is big in details, sound-staging and layering. If you ever find such person, go and listen to it. Not everything you need data or graph.I'll ask the same thing of you as I asked @jtgofish : do you have any data to back up that claim? Jim
Well I am an Australian citizen and under Australian law I have those rights of freedom of opinion.Not all citizens do of course.Then there are three little letters you can use: IMO. They stand for IN MY OPINION.
I don't see them anywhere in your post. Instead, what you wrote comes off as sounding like fact .... which it isn't. It's not only just your opinion, but it's an unprovable and indefensible opinion.
And I'm not Australian.
Jim
That is completely wrong. IMO.The Revel F208 is an interesting modern speaker because it has relatively poor image depth and projection despite measuring very well.There is very little projection in front of the plane of the speakers although there is some depth back behind them.There is a small dip in the 1500Hz -2500Hz range that some reviewers have commented on and which they have suggested might account for this recessed soundstage but it is only very slight.Very odd that Revel would release a speaker that sounds like that and yet they sold lots of them.They would probably be OK with orchestral music but sound quite odd with closely mic'ed vocals.They have now discontinued them.That speaker was measured here but nothing too unusual was found.
Another common speaker that has poor mage depth is the Yamaha NS1000.Many people seem not to hear how poor the imaging is on them.They have a peanut shaped soundstage and you will observe experienced listeners moving their heads from side to side trying to get a central image to lock in but it never happens.
Some people seem to only hear left/right and tone.
I ask to Amir to do some test about those premium LCR also a good way to expel myth. At least original crossover vs premium mod. No action from him.I see. I suppose it's too much to ask for a double-blind test?
Jim
Yup, same spec comparing cheap crossover vs premium replacement. Many months ago on some GR research threads.Do you mean that you assembled several crossovers, using parts that had identical specifications but were constructed of different materials? I would think such a test would be very interesting. And yes, I think it would dispel some myths.
So you asked him whether he would be interested in testing your crossovers, and he has not answered you yet, correct? When did you ask him? Jim
There is some actual data.Yup, same spec comparing cheap crossover vs premium replacement. Many months ago on some GR research threads.
I have don't have any crossover, I'm not a DIY-er. I am pretty sure it is very easy for him to came up with such test.
Beside I used to have friends mod speaker using all those premium LCR and the difference is big in details, sound-staging and layering. If you ever find such person, go and listen to it.
For claims like the one above you do. Otherwise just keep it at I heard a big difference.Not everything you need data or graph.
The Revel F208 is an interesting modern speaker because it has relatively poor image depth and projection despite measuring very well.There is very little projection in front of the plane of the speakers although there is some depth back behind them.There is a small dip in the 1500Hz -2500Hz range that some reviewers have commented on and which they have suggested might account for this recessed soundstage but it is only very slight.Very odd that Revel would release a speaker that sounds like that and yet they sold lots of them.They would probably be OK with orchestral music but sound quite odd with closely mic'ed vocals.They have now discontinued them.That speaker was measured here but nothing too unusual was found.
Another common speaker that has poor mage depth is the Yamaha NS1000.Many people seem not to hear how poor the imaging is on them.They have a peanut shaped soundstage and you will observe experienced listeners moving their heads from side to side trying to get a central image to lock in but it never happens.
Some people seem to only hear left/right and tone.
So? What do you think that this proves?No data at all. But you can see many if not all these stuff in 10k+ and above speaker. Speaker manufacture like Magico just almost made these stuff by themselves.
My friend still retain the original crossover which using cheap LCR. It is easy to do the A/B test. Beside his speaker is easily audition in my country. I already heard several times. My brother even bought a pair. It is easy for me hear the difference.1) If you're not a DIY-er, how do you know what your friends did to the crossover when they changed parts? They may have changed values as well as materials.
2) I think we need to make something clear: YOU made the statement; it's up to YOU to provide controlled scientific data to support your statement. It is not for other people to do your work for you; that's a very thoughtless, inconsiderate and selfish attitude. You need to provide the crossovers, paying for them yourself. You would also need to provide drivers as load termination for the crossovers to have any meaning in real-world use.
@HarmonicTHD has referenced an interesting paper. Time and again, tests have shown that subjective impressions cannot be scientifically confirmed. This is, as we all know, an on-going process of testing and re-testing. But the vast majority of results, so far, have shown that the human ear has a poor ability to isolate characteristics that can be expressed quite easily with instrumentation.
The statement was made above that the outcome of such a test as you have suggested is already known. I think that is correct. You stated .....
I think you have that a little bit backwards. The "... listen to it ...." part is correct. The rest is, "... if you hear a difference, data and graphs will show what the difference is."
I would like you to read this paper. I suggest using DeepL Translate as the translation app. The paper is addressed to businessmen, but the principles it discusses are applicable to all human knowledge.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes...n-reality-not-imagined-facts/?sh=3f188b71cf18
Thank you, and good luck!
Jim
At people can differential electrolyte cap from poly or film cap whether you name it. Electrolyte cap cost 10 to even 100 time cheaper than these film or poly caps. Poly or film cap some manufacturer product their own as Jenson or Milfex cost are insane. That goes to in house copper inductor and copper resistor.There is some actual data.
AES Paper Digest: Audio Capacitors. Myth or reality?
Thanks to Michael for bringing my attention to this paper. I had it in my library already but I did not remember it :). Audio Capacitors. Myth or reality? P. J. Duncan , P. S. Dodds , and N. Williams University of Salford, Greater Manchester, M5 4WT, UK. [email protected] ICW Ltd...www.audiosciencereview.com
Not speaking for Amir, but I would presume he knows the outcome of such a test and therefore doesn’t think it is worthwhile.
As stated several times by other posters and me - there is no evidence that these differences exist. And any perceived differences are most likely due to expectation bias. That’s why controlled, unsighted tests can help. As quoted in my link - controlled tests have failed to identify a difference. And your friends are not a viable, replicable source (neither are my friends who all stated the opposite of what your friends claim).My friend still retain the original crossover which using cheap LCR. It is easy to do the A/B test. Beside his speaker is easily audition in my country. I already heard several times. My brother even bought a pair. It is easy for me hear the difference.
At people can differential electrolyte cap from poly or film cap whether you name it. Electrolyte cap cost 10 to even 100 time cheaper than these film or poly caps. Poly or film cap some manufacturer product their own as Jenson or Milfex cost are insane. That goes to in house copper inductor and copper resistor.
The right to freedom of opinion is the right to hold opinions without interference, and cannot be subject to any exception or restriction.
At people can differential electrolyte cap from poly or film cap whether you name it.
Of course, you are not exposed to these, you can brush it up as claims. There are tons of people do mods. Spending hundreds to thousands just to mod a 1k speaker. People does it also own system like Magico or Wilson audio.As stated several times by other posters and me - there is no evidence that these differences exist. And any perceived differences are most likely due to expectation bias. That’s why controlled, unsighted tests can help. As quoted in my link - controlled tests have failed to identify a difference. And your friends are not a viable, replicable source (neither are my friends who all stated the opposite of what your friends claim).
So please provide hard evidence for your implausible claim and we will all consider it.
Again: what does this prove? Many people believe homeopathy works, but that doesn't make it true...There are tons of people do mods. Spending hundreds to thousands just to mod a 1k speaker. People does it also own system like Magico or Wilson audio.
As voodoless said. Just because many people do foolish things (mostly misinformed by the audio industry wanting to sell expensive stuff) does not proof anything. There are still people believing the earth is flat.Of course, you are not exposed to these, you can brush it up as claims. There are tons of people do mods. Spending hundreds to thousands just to mod a 1k speaker. People does it also own system like Magico or Wilson audio.