Musetec Audio (LKS Audio) MH-DA005 Review (DAC)

[DBB]

Science says to reliably evaluate the sound of something you need to only use your ears. Your evaluation has included your eyes as your testing was not blind or controlled. So I would not invoke the word science or logic for that matter if you want to make such arguments.

I'm not claiming my conclusions are science. They are a subjective report. Do you agree with my other opinions?

 

[amirm]

"I've met a lot of audio designers in my time, and all of the best ones have one thing in common, they have great "ears." They know what good sound sounds like. The opposite camp is populated with engineers that rely exclusively on measurements to "prove" their designs are better. To my way of thinking, the second group rarely makes great sounding products. Audio is too complex to be analyzed with just numbers alone."

Can sound quality be measured?

Are audio measurements irrelevant? Can measurement be used by consumers to make informed choices about what to buy?

www.cnet.com

Funny that you think a writer that was an audio salesman knows more about audio than us as to be quoted as authority. Is this how you conduct your real life? Believing drug salesmen over your doctor?

 

[amirm]

I'm not claiming my conclusions are science. They are a subjective report. Do you agree with my other opinions?

Not for a minute. You need to evaluate sound with your ears only and you have yet to do that. Watch my video which was posted above.

 

[Martin]

This and the preceding MH-DA004 were both units I was once considering buying and supplying for test. Happy I never followed through. Typical poor audiophile performance.

Martin

 

[Veri]

Do you send your measurement equipment to a concert?

What is this argument even But yeah I'm all for sending @amirm to a concert for an ASR review LOL

Would you be willing to sponsor? You know, for science.

 

[DBB]

Amir, I very much respect your technical background. Measurement numbers are not the same as sound quality which is necessarily subjective. How many live concerts have you gone to in the last 3 years? I have never read a music review that you wrote. Are you qualified to talk about the sound of music?

 

[Veri]

How many live concerts have you gone to in the last 3 years? I have never read a music review that you wrote. Are you qualified to talk about the sound of music?

Okay at this point you're really just a confirmed troll. WHAT is the argument here? Objective data shows clear design mistakes so we're back to "do you even music" ? It's honestly shameful and ridiculous.

 

[DBB]

What is this argument even But yeah I'm all for sending @amirm to a concert for an ASR review LOL

Would you be willing to sponsor? You know, for science.

Has he been to many? I contribute to send him.

 

[SubsonicLurker]

I’ll try to state my view as clearly as I can now to avoid endless repetitive back and forth. I am not looking to be a troll or be trolled. I have only occasionally read this forum, but the impression I’ve gotten on this Musetec “review” is that not one comment was from anyone who has listened to it. How much time did Amir spend listening to it? I have owned this dac for over a year and spent many hours listening to it and also comparing it to the Holo May.

My thesis then is the tail is wagging the dog here. Why do we even care about audio equipment if not to listen to music? Please read that sentence twice.

The interesting and important question is: why do measurements of audio equipment sometimes differ sharply from what is subjectively heard by the listener? Even John Atckinson the measurement guru of Stereophile magazine has commented on occasion that his listening impression differs from what he has heard.

So, since musical enjoyment is primary, the significant question to examine scientifically is: why do measurements of audio equipment sometimes differ sharply from what is subjectively heard by the listener?

Two possible reasons that come to mind:

1. auditory acuity - some people, particularly younger people, have better hearing than others so they may pick up on things that (dis)please them
2. listener preference/bias - it's perfectly fine to say I prefer the sound of "X" over that of "Y", but that's not a basis for saying "X" is objectively better than "Y".

For A, I never liked the sound of the Polk speakers that I heard because I felt that their treble balance was too sharp for my preference. They may have revised their speaker voicing in the 30+ years since I last listened to them, or the natural loss of high-frequency acuity due to age may make them sound just fine to me now.

With regard to B, guitarists tend to have a preference in their pick-ups & amps because of their distortion signatures. The distortion products of "X" are clearly measurable, but the individual in question prefers them over the distortion products of "Y" even though "Y" yields better measurements.

This is a scientific question, though not one confined to physics and electronic date exclusively. As far as I know at this time we do not know the answer. It is not easy to explore, but it seems to me we should look to the fields of psychology and neuropsychology. For now, again, it seems we don’t know. Clearly enjoyment of music is a mental phenomenon.

To emphasis my point, when we go to a concert, do we bring a microphone, computer, and oscilloscope? No, of course we go to listen and enjoy the music. Again, the tail is wagging the dog in this forum.

What’s going on here appears to be neither science nor a review, but a measurement report. My conclusion is that this forum might best be called not Audio Science Review Forum, but Audio Equipment Measurement Report. The data measured is of interest but ultimately only a footnote since the most significant question is: how does it sound?

I've actually been to plenty of concerts when I thought the venue's acoustics, and resultant sound, were pretty bad but the event itself was enjoyable for other reasons. However, if assessed strictly on the basis of sound quality, it was not a good event.

 

[DBB]

Okay at this point you're really just a confirmed troll. WHAT is the argument here? Objective data shows clear design mistakes so we're back to "do you even music" ? It's honestly shameful and ridiculous.

My point is that the measurement findings are secondary to the subjective sound quality. The minions here deprecated this dac solely on measurements. Measurements are the tail, sound quality is the dog.

 

[SubsonicLurker]

Beautiful piece with no guts

it should be put into a museum, but kept out of a sound system

 

[BDWoody]

"I've met a lot of audio designers in my time, and all of the best ones have one thing in common, they have great "ears." They know what good sound sounds like. The opposite camp is populated with engineers that rely exclusively on measurements to "prove" their designs are better. To my way of thinking, the second group rarely makes great sounding products. Audio is too complex to be analyzed with just numbers alone."

Can sound quality be measured?

Are audio measurements irrelevant? Can measurement be used by consumers to make informed choices about what to buy?

www.cnet.com

Quoting Steve G? That'll make a lot of headway...

My point is that the measurement findings are secondary to the subjective sound quality. The minions here deprecated this dac solely on measurements. Measurements are the tail, sound quality is the dog.

Ok, that's enough for you in this thread.

 

[xaviescacs]

My point is that the measurement findings are secondary to the subjective sound quality. The minions here deprecated this dac solely on measurements. Measurements are the tail, sound quality is the dog.

@DBB , really, you have to look deeper into this. We don't listen to electricity, a DAC produces an electrical signal that can be eventually converted to sound. The best way to parametrize an electrical signal is by measuring it, not by converting it to sound with a transducer and listeing to the result. It's completely pointless. If you don't understand this, there is very little to talk about. There is plenty of info on this site you can reed to get a good understanding of this.

 

[BDWoody]

If anyone knows of places (specific forum/threads, website, etc.) where discussion and exploration of the emerging science & best practices regarding the intersection of measured performance and audible results is taking place, I'd be very interested in pointers or references if anyone would be kind enough to suggest some.

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Endibol]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Musetec Audio (LKS Audio) MH-DA005 ES9038 based stereo DAC. It was kindly purchased new and drop shipped to me. It costs US $3,299.
View attachment 207311

At 12 Kg/26 pounds, this is one of the heaviest DACs I have tested. Fit and finish is excellent as you can see in the above picture. That carries to the chunky metal remote:

View attachment 207312

When I plugged the unit in, Windows did not load the class driver for it which means it is not class compliant. I could not find a driver online but a flash drive as shown above comes with an ASIO driver. The internal USB interface is the common but old Amanero. Driver installed but the ASIO driver would not function. The remote was not functional either. I saw a screw driver in the box which I assume is to open its back to put in batteries. What a pain.

When I powered the unit, it started to count down tell me to wait! I glanced at the main board and it seems to have a bunch of supercaps or batteries in that that it must be charging. Anyway, I waited the two minutes for it to get ready.

Musetec MH-DA005 Measurements
View attachment 207314

I couldn't believe these results. Company spec is 10x lower distortion:
View attachment 207315
I changed inputs and measured RCA output:

View attachment 207316

Going with this, performance is unacceptable at any price level these days let alone wht MH-DA005 costs:
View attachment 207317

I suspected the output stage may be saturating so ran a sweep:
View attachment 207318

That is it. We are now very close to rated spec (110 dB vs 114 dB spec) but we can only get there at 1.5 volt output. This is bad.

News gets worse with IMD two-tones:
View attachment 207319

So we not only have output saturation we saw before, but mother of all "ESS DAC IMD hump!" At lower outputs performance drops to that of a $9 phone dongle!

Not all news is bad. Dynamic range for example is excellent:

View attachment 207320

Linearity is perfect:
View attachment 207321

Just when you settle in, here comes the jitter test:
View attachment 207322

There is a DPLL bandwidth setting but that could help internally generated noise sources above. But even if they do, none of the settings should be this bad.

Without the remote working, I could not change filters. Fortunately the default one is what you expect:
View attachment 207323

Multitone test shows rising distortion with frequency which is again disappointing:
View attachment 207324

This in turn shows up in THD+N vs frequency:

View attachment 207325

Conclusions
So easy to fall in the trap of going by looks, price and written specs (as opposed to proper measurements). While doing a few things right, there is a lot wrong with design of MH-DA005. They have an excellent core as far as DAC chip is concerned, but they poorly implement the companion circuits. Instead of focusing to get the basics right, focus seems to be elsewhere (battery bank and such). A shame since the packaging is very nice.

I cannot recommend the Musetec Audio (LKS Audio) MH-DA005. If someone thinks this sample is broken, then get the company to produce the above measurements and I will happy to revisit.

---------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

This shows again how easily you can be deceived by a beautiful exterior: it looks fantastic, so you tend to think it performs fantastic, certainly taking the price tag into account... What a disappointment..

 

[xaviescacs]

Ok, that's enough for you in this thread.

I didn't see this and I aswered the man yet again...

 

[FL_Guy]

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

audiosciencereview.com

Thanks.

 

[Jim Shaw]

Amir, I very much respect your technical background. Measurement numbers are not the same as sound quality which is necessarily subjective. How many live concerts have you gone to in the last 3 years? I have never read a music review that you wrote. Are you qualified to talk about the sound of music?

Do you have calibrated ears that are proven to correlate well with all others?
Are your ears trusted to agree with most other people? How do you know that?
If you say something sounds "warm," or dry, or lively, forward, or laid back, or whatever -- is there some standard that defines those terms for most of the public? The answer is "no." A "no" that should be stated at the threshold of pain.

Without such standards, you, and Steve, and Z, and Andrew, and the likes are just peeing up a bit of coax with your subjective hearing.
I don't care how it sounds to you, so why would I listen to you? Because you are a Youtuber and you live off of the clicks?

But give me some accurate, traced-to-standards measurements and I have some hope of learning if it's worth a trial in my room, on my taste in music. Otherwise, it's monkeys and typewriters... monkeys and video cameras.

 

[Luca_]

I was

I said in the review that I had to install drivers to get USB to work. And tested AES input which needs no driver. Did you not read it?

As to firmware update, the unit was shipped from factory. You expect it to come in such broken manner as to need an upgrade already? I did read the convoluted instructions for said update and did not want to attempt it as to risk bricking it.

@amirm
let me understand, you run ultra sophisticated tests and you are not able to update the firmware of a device? the guide is quite simple, there are only two steps to take.

this verbal aggression of yours really leaves me perplexed ...

how many dollars do you want to retest after the suggested updates?

 

[srkbear]

Amir, I very much respect your technical background. Measurement numbers are not the same as sound quality which is necessarily subjective. How many live concerts have you gone to in the last 3 years? I have never read a music review that you wrote. Are you qualified to talk about the sound of music?

You’re using live concerts as a benchmark for assessing sound quality?!? I’m not sure if you’ve bothered to read Amir’s CV (which should have answered your question already)—but you’re clearly implying that you fancy yourself as a tastemaker and apparently disdain measurements as an accurate representation of how a DAC should perform “subjectively”.

Again, this is a DAC—it’s job is to reproduce the original master, that has been sampled into a digital file, back to an analog waveform as accurately as possible. That is, with the most fidelity to the original master it possibly can. It’s not supposed to “sound” like anything other than the original master, and the tests Amir is using have been validated and standardized—by the industry—to assess that exact question.

If you’re expecting anything else from a DAC, you have disqualified yourself from speaking with authority on the science involved, so the question of whose ear is more refined is moot right out of the gate. Remember, the internet is forever! I’d be careful about your degree of sanctimony on this forum because someday you might re-read what you’ve written and wish you could take it back. Trust me, I say this from my own experience…