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YG Sonja discussion

AnalogSteph

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Looking at JA's measurements of the Sonjas, I can't say I like the impedance dipping down to about 2.5 ohms in the 150-400 Hz range very much. Mind you, anyone who has that much money to spend should have little difficulty affording an amplifier with plenty of grunt, but they'll certainly need that. Plain ol' passive speakers certainly are not state of the art at this price point in any case.

Using separate subs as suggested by @q3cpma is certainly a good idea. This gives you substantially more flexibility when it comes to evening out the bass frequency response across the room, pre room correction.

As a general rule of thumb, the effort needed for a given level of sound reproduction scales quite considerably with:
  1. listening distance (room size),
  2. required playback levels and
  3. room acoustics.
Every speaker construction is going to lend itself to a different set of these.

Production volume of the components used is another major factor. There is no better way of bringing the price of something down than efficient mass production, which in turn tends to increase demand, making things even cheaper (Ford Model T pricing over the years would make a good example). It also incentivises further R&D.

In sum, this is why $2000 a pair gets you near world class performance in nearfield monitors (even less in the headphone world), while prices skyrocket once you get into the midfield and then main monitor realm, with a few more rough edges remaining than you might expect. Go from manufacturers that still shift a decent amount of product to more boutique outfits, and the sky is the limit.

So it literally pays to be acutely aware of what you really, really need and want. (Will some near/midfield jobs at 1.5-2 m plus misc. subs do or do you need to rock the whole house at live concert levels? Are extravagalent looks a requirement or will form-follows-function do just fine?) If you don't, yet have a 4/5-figure budget, by all means go and hire a professional consultant who plans this sort of thing (e.g. for studios) on a regular basis.
 
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smodtactical

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What are "microdetails"? "Macrodetails"? At what level is it "micro", "macro"... How do you measure those? Reliably? Repeatably?
I can surmise as easily the following:
After reading Amir report on the Elac DBR62 , I put it in my system and started listening to it carefully. This is what I got:
Based on listening at home using my electronics: The $200,000 D'Ag Momenkranz amplifier, the Brutal Research $159,000 tubes preamp , DAC was the Zibondoh $95,000 4-box DAC stack with the $20,000 Atomic Clock from Rolex Westinghouse and a bevy of Nodstrohm TOL cables (cables were about ($175,000) . I found that the Elac needed the kind of system, no one is likely to use it with, to come to life; In my system it sounded so much more focused and frankly better than anything that I've heard ... including my current reference the $375,000 Acapeloh Pharaaoh plasma-tweeter-based horn speaker. If it weren't for a lack of bass this Elac could be the best speaker ever ... I would use for bass affordable $30,000 distributed subwoofer from Willie Coffin, their Master Ragnarok ...
========
On what can I base such assertions? On those flowering adjective and the cost/price of individual components of the system ?
Or some solid metrics? Something that can be repeated day in and day out? Those are the premises upon which this site was created: That there is an objective reality which can shed lights on sound reproduction and their correlation to our preferences. Those must be based on measured parameters. Noise floor is measurable ... THD and IMD too. If the speakers you mentioned on your post do indeed measure well in the parameters that matter then fine .. else .. can i truly go on what you told me .. Would you go on what I wrote about my system?
Here at ASR we need measurements, metrics, Method... Bring them in and we will accept your positions , even your preferences .. Else read my report on the Elac 62 in my system

Peace

I wholeheartedly appreciate and welcome your scientific approach to high end audio. Further I admit that my position is purely subjective and may not comport with the reality of scientific measurements. I happily welcome measurements and scientific comparisons of the speakers I mentioned above. Unfortunately I don't think they exist (at last for the m2 and contriva g2). All too often we find reviews that are purely subjective and thus thorough objective measurements are rare. I would love to see measurements of these speakers.

The only point of contention that I would volunteer are that although measurements are extremely important in assessing a speaker, I do not think they are the whole story because of subjective preference. There are speakers that may have deficiencies or failings in terms of certain measurement parameters but the end user may actually appreciates how they sound regardless. Thus I do not think we can completely divorce listening impressions and prefences from speaker analysis in general. But not engaging in subjective assessments on this site is something I am happy to honor.

It is one thing if you want to engage in a meaningful discussion about the limited measurements available on Stereophile, but you are going to get nowhere if your level of discourse remains at the level of "it was completely obvious how much better..." or use meaningless buzzwords like those mentioned above. This site is called Audio Science Review, after all. You will find no better site to learn about demonstrable audio engineering excellence than this one. But you will find that commodity fetishism holds no value here. There are world class engineers on the forum that you can learn a lot from, but, again, you have to meet them halfway.

I hope that you don't find the tone unwelcoming. I strongly encourage you to read as much from this site as possible. It's just that things quickly get real when you are not being sold something expensive.

I will stop from using such terms on this website and again appreciate your approach to hifi audio. I do not find your tone unwelcoming at all... indeed I welcome the 'wake up' call that is being put forth and relish in the opportunity to learn and better understand audio.

If you really want nothing more than "as good performance as I can possibly get for the least money possible", you should look at Genelec's 8351B with some 7350 subwoofers or ME Geithain's RL901K2. You also have D&D's 8c, Grimm Audio's LS1 or Kii's three, if you have no problem with all-in-ones.
Or if you're on a "budget", like me, Genelecs's 8030C with one or more 7050.

Thanks so much will definitely look into them.

Looking at JA's measurements of the Sonjas, I can't say I like the impedance dipping down to about 2.5 ohms in the 150-400 Hz range very much. Mind you, anyone who has that much money to spend should have little difficulty affording an amplifier with plenty of grunt, but they'll certainly need that. Plain ol' passive speakers certainly are not state of the art at this price point in any case.

Using separate subs as suggested by @q3cpma is certainly a good idea. This gives you substantially more flexibility when it comes to evening out the bass frequency response across the room, pre room correction.

As a general rule of thumb, the effort needed for a given level of sound reproduction scales quite considerably with:
  1. listening distance (room size),
  2. required playback levels and
  3. room acoustics.
Every speaker construction is going to lend itself to a different set of these.

Production volume of the components used is another major factor. There is no better way of bringing the price of something down than efficient mass production, which in turn tends to increase demand, making things even cheaper (Ford Model T pricing over the years would make a good example). It also incentivises further R&D.

In sum, this is why $2000 a pair gets you near world class performance in nearfield monitors (even less in the headphone world), while prices skyrocket once you get into the midfield and then main monitor realm, with a few more rough edges remaining than you might expect. Go from manufacturers that still shift a decent amount of product to more boutique outfits, and the sky is the limit.

So it literally pays to be acutely aware of what you really, really need and want. (Will some near/midfield jobs at 1.5-2 m plus misc. subs do or do you need to rock the whole house at live concert levels? Are extravagalent looks a requirement or will form-follows-function do just fine?) If you don't yet have a 4/5-figure budget, by all means go and hire a professional consultant who plans this sort of thing (e.g. for studios) on a regular basis.

I'd like to know if there is a commonly recommended main monitor system that provides as you say 'world class performance' but has a price that is founded on its performance virtues rather than its branding or cosmetic appeal. A main monitor that competes with even those with sky high budgets in terms of its as you say 'performance'.
 

Frank Dernie

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I'd like to know if there is a commonly recommended main monitor system that provides as you say 'world class performance' but has a price that is founded on its performance virtues rather than its branding or cosmetic appeal. A main monitor that competes with even those with sky high budgets in terms of its as you say 'performance'.
There are several.
Whether you would want them in your house is another question!
I have heard of people with a very big room having ugly speakers behind an acoustically transparent curtain.
Many years ago I read a splendid article about the founder of SME who had a system like that.
 
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