YG Sonja discussion

[andreasmaaan]

Although their vertical directivity measurements are not really nice, as expected from a pseudo-D'Appolito design.

This is the main reason I infer that the speaker is likely to sound a little bright/overly detailed: wideband suckout in the upper-midrange power response/early reflections.

 

[Frank Dernie]

What planet are you on? Anyone who would spend that kind of money on loudspeakers has quite literally more money than sense. I find the idea quite offensive. Knock at least two zeros off that and you would be in the ballpark for most people.

For non hifi enthusiasts (which probably actually includes most music lovers IME) you may be right, but if hifi is your main hobby you will almost certainly devote more money to your hifi than your car (I always have) and, if you know anything about it, in the post-analogue era the speaker is the most important part of the system and a good full-range speaker with an amp powerful enough to drive it whilst not needing to be as expensive as these will be much more expensive than $500.
If you are happy to do without the lowest octave it is a lot cheaper, but certainly not $500.
Certainly non-hifi people are completely banjaxed by the hobby.
A little story, I was out for dinner with friends who are photographers. 3 of us have good music systems too the third, who is an official Leica documentary photographer asked us what little speakers she could get for her house.
By far the most experienced of us (he had been a dealer) recommended the BBC LS3/5a as pretty good and not too expensive. When she asked an he said (back then) "about £1600" she laughed and said "I was thinking more in the line of £100".

 

[q3cpma]

For non hifi enthusiasts (which probably actually includes most music lovers IME) you may be right, but if hifi is your main hobby you will almost certainly devote more money to your hifi than your car (I always have) and, if you know anything about it, in the post-analogue era the speaker is the most important part of the system and a good full-range speaker with an amp powerful enough to drive it whilst not needing to be as expensive as these will be much more expensive than $500.
If you are happy to do without the lowest octave it is a lot cheaper, but certainly not $500.
Certainly non-hifi people are completely banjaxed by the hobby.
A little story, I was out for dinner with friends who are photographers. 3 of us have good music systems too the third, who is an official Leica documentary photographer asked us what little speakers she could get for her house.
By far the most experienced of us (he had been a dealer) recommended the BBC LS3/5a as pretty good and not too expensive. When she asked an he said (back then) "about £1600" she laughed and said "I was thinking more in the line of £100".

I don't see how you could possibly need to spend more than on a new car, though. Except if making a room from scratch, but if we're talking speakers/electronics, this is just ridiculous, to be honest.
Maybe he meant one zero? Because $5000 sounds quite realistic, even for a hi-fi fan.

 

[Frank Dernie]

this is just ridiculous, to be honest.

Do not apply your prejudices to me and everybody else.
You may think it is ridiculous. It may be ridiculous for your financial circumstance. That is you, not universal.
For me I did not buy a car until I was 23 and had a good stereo before that.
I use my stereo several hours a day, and always have.
I use my car infrequently as an over priced, depreciating but necessary chore.
My hifi is worth far more to me, my life and my enjoyment than any car possibly could be.
Spending money on a house and a good music room (my room did cost more than the hifi) was worthwhile for me.

 

[thewas]

By far the most experienced of us (he had been a dealer) recommended the BBC LS3/5a as pretty good and not too expensive. When she asked an he said (back then) "about £1600" she laughed and said "I was thinking more in the line of £100".

Truth to be said, £100 is more the real value of a LS3/5a (and closer to its original price) if you ignore the audiophool hype around this little transmission van monitor.

 

[q3cpma]

Do not apply your prejudices to me and everybody else.
You may think it is ridiculous. It may be ridiculous for your financial circumstance. That is you, not universal.
For me I did not buy a car until I was 23 and had a good stereo before that.
I use my stereo several hours a day, and always have.
I use my car infrequently as an over priced, depreciating but necessary chore.
My hifi is worth far more to me, my life and my enjoyment than any car possibly could be.
Spending money on a house and a good music room (my room did cost more than the hifi) was worthwhile for me.

Even if I don't agree with your religion called relativism, I wasn't talking about that, since it totally makes sense to spend more on stuff you use more/that matters more to you. More about diminishing returns and how much it costs to the manufacturer to reach that point, actually; a car is "a bit" more complex than a speaker (even a very good one), and you trust your life on it.
Basically, I find nothing strange with someone spending $10k on Genelec or Neumann, but spending 10 times that on OP's speakers is obviously not about the sound itself. That's a bit like using a 2CV and saying you care about car performance; you might care about cars (engineering, history, etc...), but not performance. And I had the impression that hi-fi meant "high fidelity".

tl;dr someone putting that much into mediocre modern art that incidentally offers a speaker function doesn't do it entirely for the sound, there's obviously a degenerate side to such a luxurious obsession.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I used to be one of those who would have looked at this price and ...

Now with the superb performance of some Revel speakers, JBL and specifically the ELAC DBR62 .... I am not sure that $100,000 fora pair of speaker makes a lot of sense. One spends one's money and no one has ever become broke from indulging in HiFi (or so I suppose). This speaker and other of its ilk can be good but are past the point of diminishing returns.

With what I have learned through this forum and few others, I know for a fact that $100,000 buys you a World-Class 2 channel & a separate World Class HT with extraordinary subjective and objective performances plus room treatment plus the service of a knowledgeable person to set the systems up, plus Air Conditioning plus a solar system to power the systems in a green fashion plus a few barrels of your favorite liquor plus the glasses to drink it ..plus ... you could even find money to buy a used or even new car ...

 

[FrantzM]

I hasten to say that I do not say that Elac DB62 is an end game speaker but it strongly establishes the baseline and ... at $600 a pair

 

[bluefuzz]

you will almost certainly devote more money to your hifi than your car

Well, I don't have a car (or even a driving license) but my bicycle cost quite a bit more than my speakers.

If you are happy to do without the lowest octave it is a lot cheaper, but certainly not $500.

A pair of LXminis can be built for around $500 which I have done. By all accounts they are some of the best sounding speakers available at any price. A decent subwoofer is maybe $500 more, but that's still a long way to $100K or even 50K ...

 

[smodtactical]

Definitely its a lot of money. I guess sometimes in the hifi audio game you get a bug and you just keep wanting more. I would love for speaker that is maybe a few thousand to sound better than speakers that are $10-50-100k. Then I could save so much money. I wonder if such a speaker exists. But from my listening thus far the best speaker I ever heard was the Tidal contriva G2 and its over $60k. I've heard more humble speakers like Paradigm titan bookshelves, rega rs7, going up to focal aria 948, then paradigm sig s8 v2... and now NS5000.

The NS5000 if setup properly could give some competition to the CG2 but my strong suspicion is the latter would win in the end.

So when do you stop? When does the further increases in price not justify the smaller and smaller increases in performance? For some people its around $100-$500, other its $500-$3000. And for others its at the extreme high end at $100k +. And I think just flatly saying everyone in that ultra high end are all just stupid is not justified. Certainly im sure there are bad buys at that level. But I am sure there are also world class speakers at that level that evoke emotions from the listener that lesser speakers may not be able to evoke. And has been said by others, if the listener is truly dedicated to hifi and has the money, it might be money well spent for them.

 

[Purité Audio]

Cost is no guarantee of performance.
Keith

 

[andreasmaaan]

Definitely its a lot of money. I guess sometimes in the hifi audio game you get a bug and you just keep wanting more. I would love for speaker that is maybe a few thousand to sound better than speakers that are $10-50-100k. Then I could save so much money. I wonder if such a speaker exists. But from my listening thus far the best speaker I ever heard was the Tidal contriva G2 and its over $60k. I've heard more humble speakers like Paradigm titan bookshelves, rega rs7, going up to focal aria 948, then paradigm sig s8 v2... and now NS5000.

The NS5000 if setup properly could give some competition to the CG2 but my strong suspicion is the latter would win in the end.

So when do you stop? When does the further increases in price not justify the smaller and smaller increases in performance? For some people its around $100-$500, other its $500-$3000. And for others its at the extreme high end at $100k +. And I think just flatly saying everyone in that ultra high end are all just stupid is not justified. Certainly im sure there are bad buys at that level. But I am sure there are also world class speakers at that level that evoke emotions from the listener that lesser speakers may not be able to evoke. And has been said by others, if the listener is truly dedicated to hifi and has the money, it might be money well spent for them.

I'd suggest you look at active studio monitors in the <$10k price range, preferably with active, DSP room-optimised subs. The best of these should compete with, and indeed in some cases outperform, cost-no-object passive designs.

 

[bluefuzz]

I think just flatly saying everyone in that ultra high end are all just stupid is not justified

It's stupid the same way that it's stupid to spend untold thousands on Swiss watches, Italian sports cars or diamond necklaces. It has nothing to do with utility or function. Just a way for the obscenely wealthy to flaunt their wealth. Hi-fi as jewellery. I'm sure the ultimate performance of a loudspeaker can be had for well under, say, $10K to put a round number on it. Probably a lot less. Any acoustic gains over that would be due to room treatment or DSP correction.

But I am sure there are also world class speakers at that level that evoke emotions from the listener that lesser speakers may not be able to evoke

Nausea is about all they evoke in me ...

 

[Frank Dernie]

It's stupid the same way that it's stupid to spend untold thousands on Swiss watches, Italian sports cars or diamond necklaces. It has nothing to do with utility or function. Just a way for the obscenely wealthy to flaunt their wealth. Hi-fi as jewellery. I'm sure the ultimate performance of a loudspeaker can be had for well under, say, $10K to put a round number on it. Probably a lot less. Any acoustic gains over that would be due to room treatment or DSP correction.

Nausea is about all they evoke in me ...

You must be so young all you know about is social media.
For the first 30 years I had a stereo there was no way anybody other than my friends and family knew I had any.
The idea that hi-fi is jewellery is seen by anybody id monumentally stupid and ignorant.
Fancy cars certainly are and Rolexes (most people have only heard of them) but hifi

 

[bluefuzz]

You must be so young all you know about is social media.

LOL - I'm well into my sixth decade and don't do social media - unless you count forums like this ...

The idea that hi-fi is jewellery is seen by anybody id monumentally stupid and ignorant.

I didn't say that. But hi-fi in the $100K class most certainly is.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

There is a bit of ignorance in High End Audio. Many people genuinely think that high price is fully justified. I did , up to a certain level and it took many years of learning to wean of these thoughts. I am an EE and have a rather good understanding of maths and of signal processing. That didn't stop me for thinking that, Vinyl could be better than CD.... I held those beliefs for a long time.
I never thought of buying a $100,000 speaker but spending $50K for a speaker system in those times , was the dream for me... not MSRP .. Scores of $125 K and over, speakers float around $50K .. Check Audiogon to have an idea ...
It doesn't help that the mind plays tricks on us. The act of changing anything for something more tend to have us hear better things ....

Then there are those who are also full of Sheet ( ) ... they claim to perceive things they don't genuinely. Highs that are way above their hearing threshold (often a bunch of guys around 70 years old guys telling you they needed a supertweeter to cover the needed over 15 KHz range) or their claim about the midrange and organic sound of speakers driven by expensive flea-powered ( sometimes less than 10 watts) SET... etc ..

Subjects for a different thread , I guess.

The Sonja is an expensive speaker that seems to perform well, not better than say the Revel Salon 2. It is made of Aluminum and is a full range speaker. Thing is to enjoy its full range you may need DSP and EQ in most rooms. Meanwhile a not so full range speaker , say one that covers 100 to 20 KHz correctly ( good , controlled directivity) low THD, no compression with 4 subs will perform better in the same room at a lesser price
At that level of price, it is a lot about bragging rights, pride of ownership and status among your peers... so if a person can afford it .. Why not? Don't however, claim that your $10,000 Rolex Submariner keeps better time and is more robust than the $125 Casio G-Shock Atomic. It doesn't, it can't.

 

[smodtactical]

Cost is no guarantee of performance.
Keith

I agree. Never said it was.

Hi

There is a bit of ignorance in High End Audio. Many people genuinely think that high price is fully justified. I did , up to a certain level and it took many years of learning to wean of these thoughts. I am an EE and have a rather good understanding of maths and of signal processing. That didn't stop me for thinking that, Vinyl could be better than CD.... I held those beliefs for a long time.
I never thought of buying a $100,000 speaker but spending $50K for a speaker system in those times , was the dream for me... not MSRP .. Scores of $125 K and over, speakers float around $50K .. Check Audiogon to have an idea ...
It doesn't help that the mind plays tricks on us. The act of changing anything for something more tend to have us hear better things ....

Then there are those who are also full of Sheet ( ) ... they claim to perceive things they don't genuinely. Highs that are way above their hearing threshold (often a bunch of guys around 70 years old guys telling you they needed a supertweeter to cover the needed over 15 KHz range) or their claim about the midrange and organic sound of speakers driven by expensive flea-powered ( sometimes less than 10 watts) SET... etc ..

Subjects for a different thread , I guess.

The Sonja is an expensive speaker that seems to perform well, not better than say the Revel Salon 2. It is made of Aluminum and is a full range speaker. Thing is to enjoy its full range you may need DSP and EQ in most rooms. Meanwhile a not so full range speaker , say one that covers 100 to 20 KHz correctly ( good , controlled directivity) low THD, no compression with 4 subs will perform better in the same room at a lesser price
At that level of price, it is a lot about bragging rights, pride of ownership and status among your peers... so if a person can afford it .. Why not? Don't however, claim that your $10,000 Rolex Submariner keeps better time and is more robust than the $125 Casio G-Shock Atomic. It doesn't, it can't.

I would love if the salon 2 matched or even beat the Sonja. I could save a massive amount of money. I am in no way interested in hifi jewellery or bragging rights. I simply want as good performance as I can possibly get for the least money possible. Of course there is much greater value in lower priced speakers but in my listening speakers like the Tidal Contriva G2 or Magico M2 were significantly better than all other speakers ive heard that are most affordable.

That is not to say the more affordable speakers are not great as well. The NS5000 is an incredible speaker and much cheaper than both the G2 and M2. But you can clearly hear how much better those are in terms of microdetail, macrodetail, imaging etc.

I even directly compared the G2 to the Tonda D in the same system and it was completely obvious how much better the G2 was (though the Tonda D is superb as well).

Anyway to summarize at least in my experience there ARE gains to be had at higher levels and I reject the notion that any speaker over $10k is just hifi jewellery and doesn't offer any more performance. But I respect all of your opinions. This is just my perspective. I hope I am wrong and I find a speaker under $10k that can out perform these $100k speakers. That speaker would be a true dream speaker for me... and my wallet.

 

[FrantzM]

I agree. Never said it was.



I would love if the salon 2 matched or even beat the Sonja. I could save a massive amount of money. I am in no way interested in hifi jewellery or bragging rights. I simply want as good performance as I can possibly get for the least money possible. Of course there is much greater value in lower priced speakers but in my listening speakers like the Tidal Contriva G2 or Magico M2 were significantly better than all other speakers ive heard that are most affordable.

That is not to say the more affordable speakers are not great as well. The NS5000 is an incredible speaker and much cheaper than both the G2 and M2. But you can clearly hear how much better those are in terms of microdetail, macrodetail, imaging etc.

I even directly compared the G2 to the Tonda D in the same system and it was completely obvious how much better the G2 was (though the Tonda D is superb as well).

Anyway to summarize at least in my experience there ARE gains to be had at higher levels and I reject the notion that any speaker over $10k is just hifi jewellery and doesn't offer any more performance. But I respect all of your opinions. This is just my perspective. I hope I am wrong and I find a speaker under $10k that can out perform these $100k speakers. That speaker would be a true dream speaker for me... and my wallet.

What are "microdetails"? "Macrodetails"? At what level is it "micro", "macro"... How do you measure those? Reliably? Repeatably?
I can surmise as easily the following:
After reading Amir report on the Elac DBR62 , I put it in my system and started listening to it carefully. This is what I got:
Based on listening at home using my electronics: The $200,000 D'Ag Momenkranz amplifier, the Brutal Research $159,000 tubes preamp , DAC was the Zibondoh $95,000 4-box DAC stack with the $20,000 Atomic Clock from Rolex Westinghouse and a bevy of Nodstrohm TOL cables (cables were about ($175,000) . I found that the Elac needed the kind of system, no one is likely to use it with, to come to life; In my system it sounded so much more focused and frankly better than anything that I've heard ... including my current reference the $375,000 Acapeloh Pharaaoh plasma-tweeter-based horn speaker. If it weren't for a lack of bass this Elac could be the best speaker ever ... I would use for bass affordable $30,000 distributed subwoofer from Willie Coffin, their Master Ragnarok ...
========
On what can I base such assertions? On those flowering adjective and the cost/price of individual components of the system ?
Or some solid metrics? Something that can be repeated day in and day out? Those are the premises upon which this site was created: That there is an objective reality which can shed lights on sound reproduction and their correlation to our preferences. Those must be based on measured parameters. Noise floor is measurable ... THD and IMD too. If the speakers you mentioned on your post do indeed measure well in the parameters that matter then fine .. else .. can i truly go on what you told me .. Would you go on what I wrote about my system?
Here at ASR we need measurements, metrics, Method... Bring them in and we will accept your positions , even your preferences .. Else read my report on the Elac 62 in my system

Peace

 

[Purité Audio]

I agree. Never said it was.



I would love if the salon 2 matched or even beat the Sonja. I could save a massive amount of money. I am in no way interested in hifi jewellery or bragging rights. I simply want as good performance as I can possibly get for the least money possible. Of course there is much greater value in lower priced speakers but in my listening speakers like the Tidal Contriva G2 or Magico M2 were significantly better than all other speakers ive heard that are most affordable.

That is not to say the more affordable speakers are not great as well. The NS5000 is an incredible speaker and much cheaper than both the G2 and M2. But you can clearly hear how much better those are in terms of microdetail, macrodetail, imaging etc.

I even directly compared the G2 to the Tonda D in the same system and it was completely obvious how much better the G2 was (though the Tonda D is superb as well).

Anyway to summarize at least in my experience there ARE gains to be had at higher levels and I reject the notion that any speaker over $10k is just hifi jewellery and doesn't offer any more performance. But I respect all of your opinions. This is just my perspective. I hope I am wrong and I find a speaker under $10k that can out perform these $100k speakers. That speaker would be a true dream speaker for me... and my wallet.

You might try Dutch&Dutch’s 8C , they might be slightly more than $10k but they will out perform the YGs, Magicos etc etc.
Keith

 

[q3cpma]

I agree. Never said it was.



I would love if the salon 2 matched or even beat the Sonja. I could save a massive amount of money. I am in no way interested in hifi jewellery or bragging rights. I simply want as good performance as I can possibly get for the least money possible. Of course there is much greater value in lower priced speakers but in my listening speakers like the Tidal Contriva G2 or Magico M2 were significantly better than all other speakers ive heard that are most affordable.

That is not to say the more affordable speakers are not great as well. The NS5000 is an incredible speaker and much cheaper than both the G2 and M2. But you can clearly hear how much better those are in terms of microdetail, macrodetail, imaging etc.

I even directly compared the G2 to the Tonda D in the same system and it was completely obvious how much better the G2 was (though the Tonda D is superb as well).

Anyway to summarize at least in my experience there ARE gains to be had at higher levels and I reject the notion that any speaker over $10k is just hifi jewellery and doesn't offer any more performance. But I respect all of your opinions. This is just my perspective. I hope I am wrong and I find a speaker under $10k that can out perform these $100k speakers. That speaker would be a true dream speaker for me... and my wallet.

If you really want nothing more than "as good performance as I can possibly get for the least money possible", you should look at Genelec's 8351B with some 7350 subwoofers or ME Geithain's RL901K2. You also have D&D's 8c, Grimm Audio's LS1 or Kii's three, if you have no problem with all-in-ones.
Or if you're on a "budget", like me, Genelecs's 8030C with one or more 7050.