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What is 'incompetent digital' ?

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Opus111

Opus111

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Very nice looking discrete board that. Thanks for the heads-up about the PD thread, I'll go back there and see what I missed in the detail.

Ah I do remember reading it - you're intending to use this with external resampling to high-rate DSD so you've optimized for that.
 
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Mivera

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Very nice looking discrete board that. Thanks for the heads-up about the PD thread, I'll go back there and see what I missed in the detail.

Very nice sounding as well :) No problem.
 

NorthSky

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NorthSky

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I'm quite enthusiastic about the new AKM chip, as it supports 768/32 PCM and DSD512 including Direct DSDmode.
☼ AK4497 → http://www.akm.com/akm/en/aboutus/news/20160107AK4497_001/

AK4497EQ.gif


Based on the datasheet specs, it is quite a bit higher performing in DSD mode than PCM mode. By paralleling four AKM chips per channel the specs can match the ESS Sabre specs. At least previously the AKM chips are not even expensive, so the price impact for doing so won't be bad either.


The new ESS Sabre has really good specs, but other than built-in DoP support and the improved specs it seems to be pretty much the same as the previous Sabre. The biggest improvement likely comes from support for slower clock speeds (previously full capability required 100 MHz clock) which means that lower phase noise clocks can be used (doubling crystal frequency tends to increase LF phase noise almost by 10dB).


Signalyst - http://www.signalyst.com
Developer of HQPlayer
 
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Mivera

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Miska
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I'm quite enthusiastic about the new AKM chip, as it supports 768/32 PCM and DSD512 including Direct DSDmode.
AK4497EQ.gif


Based on the datasheet specs, it is quite a bit higher performing in DSD mode than PCM mode. By paralleling four AKM chips per channel the specs can match the ESS Sabre specs. At least previously the AKM chips are not even expensive, so the price impact for doing so won't be bad either.


The new ESS Sabre has really good specs, but other than built-in DoP support and the improved specs it seems to be pretty much the same as the previous Sabre. The biggest improvement likely comes from support for slower clock speeds (previously full capability required 100 MHz clock) which means that lower phase noise clocks can be used (doubling crystal frequency tends to increase LF phase noise almost by 10dB).
Signalyst - http://www.signalyst.com
Developer of HQPlayer


Yes it's a really cool chip, however if all you are using is the DSD bypass to pass the DSD through, there won't be much advantage over the AK4490. But the PCM if you are using SPDIF from a sat receiver or airplay etc should be better.
 

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I believe the fear of "rot" was about CD-R blanks you burn yourself. As far as I know manufactured CDs will indeed last forever.

--Ethan

Ethan, some Maxell CD-Rs I bought will last much longer than all the CDs I bought in the 80s and 90s.
They are much better designed with several layers of protective coatings.
Not only that, the copies I made for myself on those high grade CD-Rs from Maxell Pro, sound better than the originals!
Why? The bits are better re-recorded on the higher quality CD-R, and better read by the laser, and better reproduced.
...I found.

Many people transfer their LPs on digital files. Me I transfer my old/badly manufactured music CDs on Pro CD-Rs.

__________

I have several CD players, from a $250 Technics MASH 4-DAC player, to a $1,000 Denon 1500II player and a $1,500 Rotel 991 player.
And everything else between; roughly twenty more CD/SACD players...Marantz, Pioneer, Oppo, Samsung, Panasonic, Sony, Sansui, other Denons, Rotels, ...

If I play a CD in my Oppo 103 ($500) or in my Rotel 991, and use the analog output connections (the DACs in the players are active), I have much richness, dynamics, resolution, bass punch, greater presence...by closing my eyes from the Rotel player.
Put your bathing suit on, jump in the ocean, and swim across to my place for a demo. :D

__________

The laser mechanisms of the CD transports, the CD clamp, the railings, etc., from solider CD players will not only give a better music reproduction but most likely last much longer than the cheaper CD players. Not always though; and it depends...of how much use (number of hours in actual use...CD drawer opening and closing, features used...skipping tracks, fast forwarding, etc.). Thirty years of playing CDs will do that to you. And fifty years of spinning LPs can do much more still...
But you already know that, so why am I saying this then? Because I want to and I can. :D
 
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Don Hills

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I believe the fear of "rot" was about CD-R blanks you burn yourself. As far as I know manufactured CDs will indeed last forever.

--Ethan

There was a problem with some manufactured CDs back in the 80s. The inks used on the label side attacked the lacquer coating between the ink and aluminium. This allowed air to reach the aluminium and oxidise it. The problem was recognised fairly early on and manufacturers progressively switched to compatible inks and lacquers, mostly UV cured products.
 

NorthSky

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...And for many years some CD manufacturing plants were mediocre in Quality Control...pin holes and bad top layer label (most sensitive layer of the CD).
CINRAM was a bad replicating company. In Canada we have many of those.

I also remember very well bad LPs from the 60s...with bents, scratches, very very light, grooves with bad residues inside, totally awful too, like the early CDs from the them bad manufacturers.

Our music is important, but the people manufacturing them mediums are not all attentive to the importance we attach to our music quality from a a medium we trust to be well preserved by the money we paid for it. That' life, and it still continues today from the bad digital hi-res music download sites.
Digital incompetence will never die, unfortunately; this is the reality of the world we live in.

I'm glad to be here in the Audio Science Review forum, because we can learn on the quality digital competence of our affairs.
People like Blizz (Mike), Amir, Ethan, Opus (Ric), etc., can guide us towards digital competence and higher performance for down-to-earth prices.
And the mediocre/inferior stuff that they charged us more for...that too we can learn about the parts totality of this entire digital competence affair that is our most precious concern; the music in its pure naturalness without superfluous financial extravaganza that brings nothing to our true musical souls.

16/44.1 PCM is still pretty good, but there are other higher res and they are worth exploring...because music matters a great deal to us, science music people in the search of a higher spiritual level. And good audio is good business for the love of music.

It's time to multiply the very few good audio reviewers out there. ...In our own names and in the names of our loved children and friends...
Competent people leads to competent digital audio signal transmission and music reproduction. ...The science @ the service of our passionate art.
 

March Audio

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I believe the fear of "rot" was about CD-R blanks you burn yourself. As far as I know manufactured CDs will indeed last forever.

--Ethan

Actually I owned a couple of normal CDs that suffered rot. Their surfaces oxidised, went a tarnished bronze colour and stopped playing.

I remember something about sulphur in the cardboard packaging causing issues for the lacquer.
 

Don Hills

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... 16/44.1 PCM is still pretty good, but there are other higher res and they are worth exploring ...

... if you have the ability.
Judging Individual High Resolution Audio Perception Capabilities
 

Sal1950

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Actually I owned a couple of normal CDs that suffered rot. Their surfaces oxidised, went a tarnished bronze colour and stopped playing.

I remember something about sulphur in the cardboard packaging causing issues for the lacquer.

You were supposed to seal the edges of those early CDs with one dem Green pens. You must of miss dose instructions. ;)
 

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... if you have the ability.
Judging Individual High Resolution Audio Perception Capabilities
Wow. Most excellent work/talk. Thanks for posting it. I am going to elevate it to a thread in psychoacoustics forum.
 

Ethan Winer

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There was a problem with some manufactured CDs back in the 80s. The inks used on the label side attacked the lacquer coating between the ink and aluminium. This allowed air to reach the aluminium and oxidise it. The problem was recognised fairly early on and manufacturers progressively switched to compatible inks and lacquers, mostly UV cured products.
Ah, I did not know that. I'm glad they fixed it early, before CDs lost their well-deserved reputation for having "perfect sound forever." :D
 

NorthSky

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That was just a Philips/Sony slogan Ethan. :D
Anyway, the top layer on a CD is the most sensitive one. And @ the beginning of the CD it wasn't very apparent here in North America, with the transparent top layer, and pin holes from some CD manufacturers.

Here's a fact: Some people (myself included) bought many defective CDs from the 80s. I'm not talking a handful here, but several hundreds.
...And the same with LPs. And today the same with some sites selling hi-res music downloads.

Competence is not man's forte, in general. And it don't matter digitally, analog wise and financially.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc_bronzing

You can google more and find many other CD defects from other manufacturing plants...in both the USA and Canada.

The pop/rock music of yesterday on CDs (and classical and jazz too), and even today, along with Heavy metal and Rap music, on CDs, are/were not all created equal when it comes to quality music recordings and quality manufacturing.

Some record label companies are more conscientious about quality mediums, and quality music recordings. Digital, analog and financial.

Hundred years of music recordings is enough time to discover the better ones, and to stay away from the bad ones. But man, all my early Led Zeppelin, The Doors, ...etc. on CDs they sound truly awful! There is simply no life in them. The search for remasters is on, and always will be...because digital competence is always in constant change of further improvement.
Today some of those remasters they sound better, but the dynamics are suffering. Take your poison.

This was another plant with many issues: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinram
 
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Don Hills

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Ah, I did not know that. I'm glad they fixed it early, before CDs lost their well-deserved reputation for having "perfect sound forever." :D

It's something I have to watch out for, I prefer early pressings of classic (rock/prog/metal) CDs from before the loudness wars. I can cope with occasional edginess or shrillness with a little treble cut, but there's no effective knob to compensate for over compression.
 

NorthSky

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Some more readings: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/cd-quality-reduction-in-general.302250/

* In my vast CD collection, Japanese, German, Northern Europe have the best quality CDs. ...Those are digitally competent.
You can hear it and you can also see it (the CD is better manufactured).

Should we make a list of the better CD labels?

__________

What you should know (some) about CDs (digital competence): ♫ http://photocollector.net/TipCD.htm
...More: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/cds-truth-cddvd-longevity-mold-rot/
 
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Sal1950

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It's something I have to watch out for, I prefer early pressings of classic (rock/prog/metal) CDs from before the loudness wars. I can cope with occasional edginess or shrillness with a little treble cut, but there's no effective knob to compensate for over compression.
I feel the same way and look specially for the early productions when I buy off ebay.

Bob, Funny I got my Magnavox 560 around 87 or 88, never bought another LP after. I've never ran into a issue with any of my CDs. Still purchasing quite a few older CDs today off ebay and thrift shops with no issues. I find it strange you ran into so many issues?
And I never even used the green pen. LOL
 

NorthSky

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Sal, I was big on LPs since age 12 (1967). Before that my Mum and Grand Ma and uncle were real big on LPs.
Music was big on the side of my Mum; her brother was a professional singer/musician, and her own mother a pianist and singer (non-pro).

In 1986 I jumped on CDs. I first listened to a Meridian CD player, than a Denon. I bought the Denon because it was only $1,000 and had great reviews all over.
I was buying lots of CDs, and only later on I realized how bad they truly were; I was more emancipated with the small compact format and easiness in playing them as compared to my LPs. And back then my TT was a cheap Akai one ($375). ...,Full automatic...from the seventies (77 I believe).

I am not a digital person, and I am not an analog person either; I'm hybrid.
I love both analog and digital well made. It amuses me to death when I try to categorize myself.

Many of my older CDs sound thin and anemic. It's just that. And many of my CDs sound fabulous. ...They are more from the mid to later 9os and up to today.
It's the way it is, with the music selections I bought, with where I live, from where I bought them...with my own music evolution (purchases).

We are all civilized people; we dress nice when we go out shopping and dining and visiting our friends.
The music we listen to is our pastime, passion, addiction...all depending of where we stand @ certain life in moments.

I could make a list of say 1,000 CDs right now: Titles, record labels, serial numbers, manufacturing plants, etc., and give you my overall listening impression of their qualitative and negative attributes. But I won't. What I do is share what "digital incompetence" represents to me. ...From both the past and the present...real life experience...mine. If someone ask a question, like here from Opus111, and regarding Ethan's expression of "incompetent digital" ...what it means; I will share and discuss it with you all. ...The good with the bad.

This is only one subject among three billions more that I take interest in.
I can only change my present for a better tomorrow today.
The past is the learning field that we all come from. And it can affect us in ways that today we live on. We are our own masters of our own destiny. The things we love and hate are what life's circumstances impact had/has on us.

When we got out shopping, dining, visiting friends, ...we dress nice and we smile and laugh together. When we listen to good music we feel real good inside...it's a personal preference on the music type we love and the medium we utilize. In those moments of intimacy the dance is ours. If we can share it in words over the internet with the tools provided...pics, videos, album covers, etc., and others can be receptive...it's good.

The CD is not perfect, the LP is not perfect, the Tape is not perfect. Nothing last forever but our soul.

@Ethan, what is "incompetent digital" ... to you?
 
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