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The Bach thread

Digby

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Ida Haendel playing the Chaconne. The best I've heard, real storytelling with music and, ironically, with a fair bit of testicular fortitude too, unlike some of the historically accurate aka music for insomniacs crowd:


Shame about the appalling Melodiya pressing. She is one artist who was always poorly recorded, by which I mean so few of her recordings have satisfactory sound quality.
 

tgbass

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Ida Haendel playing the Chaconne. The best I've heard, real storytelling with music and, ironically, with a fair bit of testicular fortitude too, unlike some of the historically accurate aka music for insomniacs crowd:


Shame about the appalling Melodiya pressing. She is one artist who was always poorly recorded, by which I mean so few of her recordings have satisfactory sound quality.

She makes a nice tone without a doubt but this reading of the Chaconne is just ponderous. Personally I'm glad this is not the style today. Was more convinced by the Bartok and Stravinsky later on the record (the Stravinsky more than the Bartok).
 

Digby

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She makes a nice tone without a doubt but this reading of the Chaconne is just ponderous.
Did you listen to all of it, perhaps it is supposed to be ponderous? Not in the literal sense of the word, but in that it is an austere and 'deep' piece of music, to make one think. A piece written in memoriam of Bach's wife. Too many play the Chaccone in a way that doesn't do justice to this aspect of the piece. I think if any piece of violin music is supposed to be profound, it is the Chaconne.

To me the heavy emphasis on steady rhythm and long notes gives it a certain, I don't know, 'rhythm of life' (and death) type feel. There are some phrases she plays that, I think, are some of the most emphatic in all violin playing. Who today could play the way she plays at 4:54 to around 6:00, or from 8:28 through to 11:15 with such deftness of touch, beautiful, coherent turn of phrase coupled with a rock solid sense of rhythm.
 

tgbass

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Did you listen to all of it, perhaps it is supposed to be ponderous? Not in the literal sense of the word, but in that it is an austere and 'deep' piece of music, to make one think. A piece written in memoriam of Bach's wife. Too many play the Chaccone in a way that doesn't do justice to this aspect of the piece. I think if any piece of violin music is supposed to be profound, it is the Chaconne.

To me the heavy emphasis on steady rhythm and long notes gives it a certain, I don't know, 'rhythm of life' (and death) type feel. There are some phrases she plays that, I think, are some of the most emphatic in all violin playing. Who today could play the way she plays at 4:54 to around 6:00, or from 8:28 through to 11:15 with such deftness of touch, beautiful, coherent turn of phrase coupled with a rock solid sense of rhythm.

It's just a movement from one of his violin partitas, and I think is best seen in that context even though it is frequently played by itself. I would imagine that Haendel's performances of other Bach movements/pieces sound similar. I would question the aesthetic judgment of anyone intentionally playing Bach in a ponderous way today, but I think she is just playing in the prevalent style of the time that recital was recorded which happens to sound ponderous to my 2022 ears. For example it does not sound "profound" to me at all. It sounds heavy-handed.

As far as the specific spots you mention, I guess I just wouldn't characterize them the same way you do. To me it sounds essentially that every note is equally important (eg the arpeggios ~5:15) , which particularly at such slow tempi is not an engaging listen. My tastes just lie elsewhere. For context, I am a big fan of Isabelle Faust generally, but specifically her recording of this Chaconne is both technically better (particularly regarding intonation and articulation) and more importantly far more agile in terms of phrasing. One more along the lines of the Haendel reading is Hilary Hahn's 1999 recording, which takes even slower tempi, but still manages to be significantly more dynamic in its phrasing/shaping.
 

TimF

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I will start by saying that different people hear different things in Bach, and also in Bach recordings. Even for myself, if I am in a different mood when I listen to Bach, I might hear something different. This is why I have more than 10 complete recordings in my collection. Since you asked me what my favourite recording is, here are a few of mine and what I think about them:

View attachment 248055


I consider Sviatoslav Richter to be the greatest pianist of the 20th century. Why? Because he was so versatile. You will find that most pianists specialize in certain composers or music types, e.g. Brendel and Uchida are Mozart, Beethoven, and Schubert specialists, Horowitz for Chopin and Scarlatti, and then you have the ultra specialists who are best known for one composer only, and there are quite a few Bach specialists: Hewitt, Gould, Tureck, Landowska, and so on. Richter was one of very few who could play almost any composer and produce one of the best, if not the best version of the work.

Having said that, I find this recording to have a few Richter eccentricities, for example the C Minor Fugue from book 1 (BWV 847) is played way too fast and aggressive and it almost sounds like percussion. I also think he smooths over the counterpoint for some of the other fugues - if he is trying to make a point, I don't know what it is. You still get the signature hypnotic playing style of Richter which really works with some pieces.

In the clip above, Richter makes the piece sound so bright and full of wonderment, as if you are waking up in the morning and making a start to your day. And yes it is a wonderful way to start everything that Richter is going to serve you next.

Overall I think it is an inconsistent collection with some amazing pieces and some horrifyingly bad pieces with the rest in between. I recommend it for the beginner because it was cheap (when it was on CD), and in fact I have bought countless copies as gifts for friends. But it is not the best version.

View attachment 248051


Someone will always ask about Glenn Gould, especially Canadians who seem to love Glenn Gould. I have a somewhat controversial view of Gould in that I do not like him. As in, I find his playing to be unlistenable. You probably already know his signature style - metronome-like precision, no piano or forte, no change in dynamics, a dry percussive sound almost as if he is playing every note staccato, and that humming in the background. He treats the piano as a giant harpsichord. Someone said that they hear Gould and not Bach. I agree. I have certainly tried to understand why so many people love him, Gould is the only pianist whom I have collected a sizeable number of recordings even though I do not like his music and barely listen to his recordings - all so that I could try to understand. I still don't understand. So for me, I am not going to recommend him.

View attachment 248057


Wanda Landowska once said to another pianist, "You play Bach your way, and i'll play him his way". She wrote a little treatise on the subject of interpreting Bach, where she derides fashion, non-traditional interpretations, and modern instruments: "These fugues, according to Mr. Schweitzer, played on the organ of today, become as heavy and massive as engravings reproduced in crayon. As for our concert-grand, that machine goes to deafen an entire audience. Compare its massive legs with the fine and fragile lines of those of the harpsichord and you will find the difference in taste between the two epochs summed up."

So you would think that she should be the most authentic Bach player? To start with, she uses a harpsichord - but not the same type of delicate harpsichord used by Bach. She used commissioned Pleyel to make her a harpsichord, which had a heavy iron frame similar to concert grands. It produces a massive sound - which to be honest is a matter of taste. I don't like it. Her playing itself has some really unique insights - she is one of those Bach players who will really show you something you have never heard before.

So: the poor sound quality (mostly recorded in the 30's - 40's), the awful Pleyel harpsichord would normally put her on my not recommended list. However, her playing is unique and authentic (albeit early 20th century scholarship and definitely not modern thinking) - so I would recommend her for Bach enthusiasts only. The general public would probably hate it.

View attachment 248061


I consider Gustav Leonhardt to be "the grandfather of Bach". He also uses a harpsichord, albeit the more typical delicate version and not Landowska's monstrosity. Leonhardt has a precise, patient, and wise playing style which is really relaxing. He was extremely pious and that comes through in his playing - in fact that is a perfect description of this recording - its sheer piety. Leonhardt was also a Bach scholar, and his collaboration with Niklaus Harnoncourt to produce the complete recording of Bach's cantatas is epic and really worth listening to. Although it is an older recording, EMI did a great job and this recording is really clear and is a good test for sibilance in your system. You should hear none! Definitely recommended.

View attachment 248062


Angela Hewitt made two complete recordings of the WTK, and I will recommend the 2008 one. I have also heard her play live on a number of occasions and I can tell you that she plays differently when she records. She said in an interview that for recordings she wants to play precisely and beautifully, but for live performances she wants excitement. This is a real pity because she can certainly sound quite exciting but there is none of that here. Instead, what you get is the latest Bach scholarship, pieces that are meant to be dance-like actually sound like dances, there are no eccentricities, nothing to annoy you, and you get the most pure Bach experience imaginable. Unlike other pianists who use a Steinway, Hewitt uses a Fazioli. Steinways produce a huge, sonorous sound - the typical concert grand derided by Landowska as "deafening the audience". The Fazioli piano has a delicate pearlescent tone which is really beautiful. It never gets as loud as a Steinway (for typical Steinway sound, listen to the Richter, or listen to Hewitt in a live recording). Hewitt is by far my favourite Bach pianist. Definitely recommended.

On a side note, did you know that the first four notes of the subject from the C Major Fugue, combined with the first four notes of the reply ... combine to form a perfect C Major scale? Take a look:

View attachment 248063

(EDIT) inserted youtube clips of all the above pianists playing the same C Major Prelude and Fugue BWV 846.
Angel Hewitt...when visiting Seattle I had the opportunity to hear her perform the Well Tempered Clavier, both books if I remember correctly. A wonderful experience that concert. It opened up the Well Tempered Clavier and the Preludes and Fugues for me. The point for me is only very slightly that I get a picture, however poor, of what is going on in these works, but that I allow expansion of my experience to allow the works to perform in my head. Knowing the works is a lesser than experiencing the works. The same with the Ligeti piano etudes. and maybe especially with the Ligeti Etudes; it is the experience of complexity, diversity, difference, divergence, and so forth that should dispel you from 'knowing' the works.
 

dualazmak

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I think if any piece of violin music is supposed to be profound, it is the Chaconne.

Chaconne for violin....

We have so many recordings of various violinists and various style of performances; we, music and Bach lovers, has his/her own preferences, and I always respect for everyone's preferences. And I assume that what we love best wound greatly dependent on our very first encounter with the music and/or on the performance which gave us first time great personal emotions.

In these perspectives, let me share a music out of the scope of this thread, Chaconne for violin by (or attributed to) Tomaso Antonio Vitali. As I already wrote here, Even though I have so many recordings of Vitali's Chaconne, after all I always return to this Jacques Thibaud's;
Jacques Thibaud plays Vitali Chaconne (arr.Charlier), 1936

TOCE-7826 EMI Angel (CD re-release):
WS003723.JPG


I have been always thinking about why I am so much fascinated by Jacques Thibaud's performance and recording; I assume your discussion on Ida Haendel's performance of Bach Chaconne would be one of the objective explanations for my preference.

The tragedy on Jacques Thibaud would be also affecting on my fascination to this performance. On 1 September 1953, Thibaud and 41 others died in the crash of Air France Flight 178. His 1720 Stradivarius violin was destroyed in the crash. He was on the way to Japan scheduled getting together with Casals and Cortot in Japan.

I also like this performance by Tomoko Kawada (with Maki Tanaka, piano) in 2011 at Charity Live for the victims of the Tsunami March 11, 2011 in North-East Japan.
 
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tgbass

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I have been always thinking about why I am so much fascinated by Jacques Thibaud's performance and recording; I assume your discussion on Ida Haendel's performance of Bach Chaconne would be one of the objective explanations for my preference.

It's not an objective explanation. It is purely subjective. You can describe the way things are being played (for example the way rhythms are shaped), but once you start attaching words like "profound" or "deep" you are being subjective. For example I don't hear those things in Thibaud's playing, though I assume you do, but I could describe his approach to the music in an objective way (eg very broad notes, fast vibrato, sub-optimal intonation...).
 

dualazmak

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mSpot

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Shame about the appalling Melodiya pressing. She is one artist who was always poorly recorded, by which I mean so few of her recordings have satisfactory sound quality.
I would not say that Ida Haendel was poorly recorded. Many of her recordings are from the 1940's and 1950's with sound quality typical of the mono era. Her studio recordings from the stereo era sound fine. For example, her stereo recording of the Bach Chaconne.
 

Snarfie

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By far i'm not a classic music listner.
But when i could get hold of the Philips Mercury recordings i was captured by the Bach Cello Suite. If i wanne relax i can listen for hours to it. It is so intense.

 
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Snarfie

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My go-to for Bach Cello suites is Yo-Yo Ma. Ignore his weird facial expressions as if he is high on shrooms and listen to his insight.

For me the excelent recording with 3 Neumann KM-56 mic's hang above is really priceless not only i enjoy the music you hear into the recording with my Vandies The reverberation an staging incredible detaild.

 
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MRC01

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Ma has recorded the cello suites at least 3 times: early, mid and late in his career. Each performance is a different interpretation and all of them are on Sony with good to excellent sound. My favorites are the first and last.
For a vintage performance of these works, I like Pierre Fournier on Archiv. That was the first time I heard this music many years ago and it's stuck with me.
 
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Keith_W

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If any of you are fans of Bach's Cantatas, you should go to Youtube and do a search for "Bachstiftung". It's conductor, Rudolf Lutz, has displaced my long term favourites of Harnoncourt / Leonhardt. He has a serious and analytical approach to music-making. Many of those Cantatas are accompanied by workshops (and not all of them have English subtitles) so you need to be reasonably fluent in German to understand them. Fortunately, I am!

Just imagine that Bach composed one of these every week for Sunday service, and he did so for many years. He probably composed about 300, but only 200 or so survive. I am not religious and I don't go to church, except when they have a Bach concert which is best heard in church because of the acoustics. If churches played these Cantatas every week instead of the crap music they normally play, I would be in church every Sunday.

 

computer-audiophile

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By the way:

My former sensei Sakuma San, the king of triodes (RIP), had built a special amplifier to listen to Bach and to honor him. It was written on the front panel: The amplifier for Bach.

He also gave concerts for speakers with Bach music in Japan. Sakuma inspired me to artistically expand the strictly scientific line of audio engineering. I visited him twice in Tateyama and had also volunteered to design a German website with his permission and hosted it for many years on my private server to make him better known in Germany.

Here is a photo of such an audio concert of Sakuma at Flickr (not shot by me)

https://flic.kr/p/2ct9FVL
 
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bkdc

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My favorite Chaconne is Szeryng. Makes me cry almost every time. No other recording has made me tear up.

Szeryng.jpg


My favorite Cantata - the coffee cantata. :) BWV 211

It's difficult to pick a preferred Cello suite recording. Queyras or Gaillard. Fournier... or if I'm in a contemplative mood, Hidemi Suzuki.
 
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Matias

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