Starting with turntables

[Angsty]

I get that, but it doesn't mean that I agree that the complexities can't or shouldn't be managed by someone getting their first turntable.

I wouldn't necessarily trust that a pre-fitted cartridge is correctly aligned, either, unless it is automatically the case because of the arm/headshell design (e.g. three point fixing or P mount). Why? Been there, done that, had to correct it myself. You'd probably have to set balance and antiskating yourself regardless as a minimum.

Nobody should think they can just buy a turntable, plonk it down anywhere and get good sound. How a turntable works has to be understood on day one.

Two different perspectives, both informed by prior experiences. I can respect that.

 

[Angsty]

For the newbies - What is a “Linn-style suspension”?

A suspended turntable isolates the tonearm and the platter from the base using springs. The springs are tuned to a specific frequency range to help prevent sound waves from creating a feedback loop through the cartridge. This can create clearer, more distinct sonic images from the turntable.

Most turntables made today are “unsuspended”, featuring a sturdy plinth (base) supported by rubber damped feet. Sometimes it’s a board of MDF (ex. Rega Planar 1) or a hollow, damped chassis (ex. AT-LP120).

From a physics point of view, this approach can be less effective in “isolating” a turntable from the surrounding environment, but can be much less expensive to manufacture.

Higher-end unsuspended turntables use more mass, vibration dampening materials and better designed feet to help provide isolation. Those features do add cost. A good example is the Technics SL-1200G which has engineered feet and multiple layers of dampening material in the base. The Pioneer PLX-1000 is a less expensive deck using a similar approach.

Regarding the tweaks list from earlier, some people add isolation platforms to unsuspended tables to achieve similar results as a suspended table. As they are not designed for a specific turntable, I’m skeptical of the measurable benefit versus the cost.

 

[MattHooper]

Regarding the tweaks list from earlier, some people add isolation platforms to unsuspended tables to achieve similar results as a suspended table. As they are not designed for a specific turntable, I’m skeptical of the measurable benefit versus the cost.

I have a high mass turntable. It's atop my system rack, sitting on a platform I made - maple butcher block, with another portion of constrained layer damping. Still, since the rack is sitting on a very springy section of wood floor, I could still feel floor walking vibrations getting to the turntable. In fact my tall son, who stomps the ground like godzilla when he walks by, could even skip the needle. I added some spring based isolators (Townshend Seismic Pods) under the turntable platform and that stopped vibrations dead from getting to the turntable (easily measurable on vibrometer app).

So it certainly solved that problem.

As to whether it had any effect at all on the general sonic performance of the turntable, in the way suggested by the Linn method, I don't know. I just assume probably not.

 

[Angsty]

I have a high mass turntable. It's atop my system rack, sitting on a platform I made - maple butcher block, with another portion of constrained layer damping. Still, since the rack is sitting on a very springy section of wood floor, I could still feel floor walking vibrations getting to the turntable. In fact my tall son, who stomps the ground like godzilla when he walks by, could even skip the needle. I added some spring based isolators (Townshend Seismic Pods) under the turntable platform and that stopped vibrations dead from getting to the turntable (easily measurable on vibrometer app).

So it certainly solved that problem.

As to whether it had any effect at all on the general sonic performance of the turntable, in the way suggested by the Linn method, I don't know. I just assume probably not.

The Linns are great at resisting acoustic feedback but can be prone to footfalls. Sounds like your system has been fitted to handle those impulse shocks. Wall mounted racks tend to resist footfalls, too.

 

[Robin L]

The Linns are great at resisting acoustic feedback but can be prone to footfalls. Sounds like your system has been fitted to handle those impulse shocks. Wall mounted racks tend to resist footfalls, too.

Those Scottish turntables - Ariston, Strathclyde and Linn - got their design ideas for the suspended subchassis from the Acoustic Research XA turntable, a marvel of good design coupled to economy of execution. I've owned several AR-XAs, a Linn Sondek briefly and a Strathclyde for a long time. All had springs that suspended the subchassis and would go out of alignment over time. I ultimately had better luck with Technics turntables, nothing fancy in the way of acoustic isolation. For someone starting with turntables and with a budget of $500, best to avoid turntables with suspended subchassis. One can easily find a used Technics 1200 series 'table for that kind of money, a high performance turntable for comparatively little money . If there's issues with acoustic feedback wall mounting is possible, but there probably won't be.

 

[Galliardist]

Some of those old Technics decks can be completely worn out though You can’t tell if you’re getting a dud when buying online.

I guess there are similar problems with any fifty year old turntable though…

Better make that forty years not fifty.

 

[Robin L]

Some of those old Technics decks can be completely worn out though You can’t tell if you’re getting a dud when buying online.

I guess there are similar problems with any fifty year old turntable though…

Better make that forty years not fifty.

Yeah, anything that old potentially has trouble. However I had two p-mount direct drive Technics decks and one of their earliest models - heavy, s-shaped tonearm with a bayonet headshell mount that worked great with a Shure M-44-7 cartridge, very useful for transcribing old, worn discs. Seems like it managed to ride on top of the disc wear. All three decks were trouble free, unlike the belt drive turntables I've owned where the belts seemed to wear out just in time for the companies to go out of business.

 

[recycle]

Speaking of vinyl, not all records sound the same: the quality of pressing is crucial to have a good recording: mastering for vinyl must be done in a workmanlike manner, it includes the cutting of subsonic frequencies, control over the stereo image , the peak levels which must not exceed pre-established values, otherwise the needle will jump. etc.. All this work has nothing to do with an artistic choice or with the loudness war: it is a procedure that only a specialized sound engineer from the press factory can do. Then the quality of the laquer comes into play: the press engineer must analyze the product groove by groove with the microscope before starting the replication procedure. Then the chemical materials used, the weight of the vinyl itself, the distance between the grooves , the recording speed 33/45….
Pressing vinyl is an art in itself, the sound is the result of a long series of complicated processes that some engineers know how to do consciously and many others don't. For all these reasons, when we talk about the "Sound of vinyl" we cannot generalise: only when all these difficult steps have been carried out professionally, vinyl can sound reasonably good

More info:

 

[Snoopy]

Some of those old Technics decks can be completely worn out though You can’t tell if you’re getting a dud when buying online.

I guess there are similar problems with any fifty year old turntable though…

Better make that forty years not fifty.

Saw some videos about old technics turntables that turned out to be refurbished decks with parts from older , newer and oem parts. Basically a Frankenstein turntable with random parts

 

[BDWoody]

I started using this method recently and give it my highest recommendation. I saved a little $ on the outlay by using white vinegar for the acid step, and I fortunately had a bottle of Ilford Ilfotol that I was already using in my cleaning process. Combining this cleaning method with quiet Denon carts DL-103 and DL-110 has nearly eliminated all surface noise outside of clicks.

I read through that whole thing several times a few years ago, and now follow that process exactly. I have an ultrasonic that I don't bother with anymore, as the results are excellent.

Precision cleaning like this can't be a very common professional focus, and I appreciate that the author wasn't just talking out of his ass when he put that together.

Highly recommended by me as well.

 

[Angsty]

I read through that whole thing several times a few years ago, and now follow that process exactly. I have an ultrasonic that I don't bother with anymore, as the results are excellent.

Precision cleaning like this can't be a very common professional focus, and I appreciate that the author wasn't just talking out of his ass when he put that together.

Highly recommended by me as well.

I’m really too lazy for a multi-step cleaning process. The Humminguru is like a toaster - pop in a record, turn it on, and come back when it’s done.

 

[EJ3]

Frankly , Matt, what is the point of your post

And your point is??

 

[AaronJ]

I’m really too lazy for a multi-step cleaning process. The Humminguru is like a toaster - pop in a record, turn it on, and come back when it’s done.

I wanted to get a Humminguru but was having trouble justifying the outlay. The multi step process takes 5 minutes a record once you get everything organized and labeled. In theory I shouldn’t have to clean a record again after doing it properly once and taking care when handling them after.

 

[Descartes]

A word of caution. In the spring of 2022, i got a mental (hifi) meltdown, and I got the brilliant idea, that I had to have a turntable in my setup, so I bought a Pro-Ject X1. Brand new at my favourite local hifi dealer. My preamp has a very good phono preamp, and my system at the time was a 13-14K € active speaker system with an analog preamp. A few months back I sold the turntable. The box was still unopened. My point is. Vinyl sounds like a really good idea, until you actually have to use it. Records easily cost 30-50$ a piece, and that’s not even for the harder to get albums. Unless you’re the type that really enjoy the tactile process of handling and playing vinyl, I’d say it’s a very bad idea to invest in that kind of technology. A Roon lifetime subscription is cheaper that a mediocre turntable, and that’s the route I went. If the two options in 1950 were vinyl or streaming, there would be no vinyl today.

Thank I have been scratching an inch about getting a turntable and buying some vinyl, but after the convenience of Apple Music and the infinite number of music I can listen to on an instant notice I can say that it probably won’t be happening anytime soon!

 

[Angsty]

Thank I have been scratching an inch about getting a turntable and buying some vinyl, but after the convenience of Apple Music and the infinite number of music I can listen to on an instant notice I can say that it probably won’t be happening anytime soon!

Vinyl is simply not for everybody. I would not recommend a $1000 turntable as a first purchase for that reason.

$500 is a better entry point where it’s good enough to let you know if you really want more of that experience, or not. You have to want to own stuff to be a vinyl head.

 

[Snoopy]

Vinyl is simply not for everybody. I would not recommend a $1000 turntable as a first purchase for that reason.

$500 is a better entry point where it’s good enough to let you know if you really want more of that experience, or not. You have to want to own stuff to be a vinyl head.

The thing with 500$ tables is that there is so much stuff to upgrade and things that you cannot upgrade or is not worth upgrading on such a table. And once you do 1-2 upgrades to such a table you could have just bought the one for $1000.

And there is of course a „maintenance“ cost like stylus replacements, inner & outer sleeves, brushes and cleaning supplies and furniture. Because u need to store the LPs and all the „stuff“ somewhere.

But i think it’s absolutely worth it if you play your first LP that is not available on streaming or CD and it sounds just amazing

 

[EJ3]

The thing with 500$ tables is that there is so much stuff to upgrade and things that you cannot upgrade or is not worth upgrading on such a table. And once you do 1-2 upgrades to such a table you could have just bought the one for $1000.

And there is of course a „maintenance“ cost like stylus replacements, inner & outer sleeves, brushes and cleaning supplies and furniture. Because u need to store the LPs and all the „stuff“ somewhere.

But i think it’s absolutely worth it if you play your first LP that is not available on streaming or CD and it sounds just amazing

I'm ok with the $500 TT. But the "new to this' person needs to understand that there is going to be an additional $300-$500 in items to properly take care of the records (cleaning, sleeves, upright storage bin, etc.)

 

[Angsty]

The Absolute Sound budget product of the year is the Pro-ject T1 Phono SB turntable at US$449. With a glass platter, electronic speed control and included dust cover and cartridge, it’s worth considering. The integrated phono appears to be defeatable.

Here is a review from Analog Planet of this “budget” turntable. The cited speed performance is impressive. I’d love to see HiFi News do a complete test; the $1000 Debut Pro did fairly well there.

Edit: The OM10 and OM20 styli are available as plug and play upgrades for the included cartridge, which is always nice.

Pro-Ject T1 Phono SB Turntable—Born of Frustration

Pro-Ject’s Heinz Lichtenegger pulled me aside at High End Munich 2018. He appeared agitated—not the usual easygoing (but intense) demeanor of a guy who in the early 1990s bet the farm on analog and won—bigtime. “These cheap plastic turntables from China are hurting my business….” he began. His...

www.analogplanet.com

 

[Angsty]

I wanted to get a Humminguru but was having trouble justifying the outlay. The multi step process takes 5 minutes a record once you get everything organized and labeled. In theory I shouldn’t have to clean a record again after doing it properly once and taking care when handling them after.

The thing I really like about the Humminguru is the ability to start it and walk away. So, the 5-10 min cycle time is less of an issue for me. It’s like using a dishwasher versus hand washing in the sink.

 

[antcollinet]

For the newbies - What is a “Linn-style suspension”?

A suspended turntable isolates the tonearm and the platter from the base using springs. The springs are tuned to a specific frequency range to help prevent sound waves from creating a feedback loop through the cartridge. This can create clearer, more distinct sonic images from the turntable.

Most turntables made today are “unsuspended”, featuring a sturdy plinth (base) supported by rubber damped feet. Sometimes it’s a board of MDF (ex. Rega Planar 1) or a hollow, damped chassis (ex. AT-LP120).

From a physics point of view, this approach can be less effective in “isolating” a turntable from the surrounding environment, but can be much less expensive to manufacture.

Higher-end unsuspended turntables use more mass, vibration dampening materials and better designed feet to help provide isolation. Those features do add cost. A good example is the Technics SL-1200G which has engineered feet and multiple layers of dampening material in the base. The Pioneer PLX-1000 is a less expensive deck using a similar approach.

Regarding the tweaks list from earlier, some people add isolation platforms to unsuspended tables to achieve similar results as a suspended table. As they are not designed for a specific turntable, I’m skeptical of the measurable benefit versus the cost.

When I first setup my turntable it was on top of a pine chest of drawers in close proximity to one of the speakers.

The chest functioned as a very effective sound box, resonating in the bass frequencies. I was possible to hear them ringing after tapping the chest.

Solved pretty effectively by an offcut from a solid oak door sized to cover the top of the chest. Damping material (car sound proofing) between it and the chest. Then a pad of the same damping material between each foot of the turntable and the oak.