NorthSky
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That's the same language they use @ Audio/VideoScience forum.
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Shootout between JBL M2 and Revel Salon 2
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watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Stereophile's accelerometer test of the DSP'ed, active Dynaudio Focus 200 XD (now revised to the 20 XD) gives practically nothing but deadness:
Given I've had quite a windfall on my home sale, I'm considering going for the Dynaudio Focus XD 60 (or maybe save a bit and get an older XD 600 and apply the firmware update), which cost a few grand more than the Kii Three, but dig a bit deeper in the bass and can be part of a wider Dynaudio Connect wireless system for the whole house.
Good thing I'm not your child...ask my parents.Loving one child doesn't mean you hate the other.
The Kii's are flat to 20Hz not many speakers 'dig deeper' than that, they also do not have the controlled directivity of theKiis.Stereophile's accelerometer test of the DSP'ed, active Dynaudio Focus 200 XD (now revised to the 20 XD) gives practically nothing but deadness:
Given I've had quite a windfall on my home sale, I'm considering going for the Dynaudio Focus XD 60 (or maybe save a bit and get an older XD 600 and apply the firmware update), which cost a few grand more than the Kii Three, but dig a bit deeper in the bass and can be part of a wider Dynaudio Connect wireless system for the whole house.
Keith
To a point that's a honest statement, but we went down that road before.
You can't change the laws of physic's.
There's still no substitute for cubic inches.
I can show you the measurements of every room here and at customers flat at 20Hz, you need cone area and excursion.
Keith
Keith
Keith, I'm not denying they can get down to 20hz, easily accomplished with eq.
Good enough if your expectations are modests.
But can't expect the quality and speed you'll get from a couple of large subs.
Slow subs ,quick subs, that's how they think on WBF Sal, unless you r 'quick' subs can play some previously invisible frequencies?
Flat in room means there is no roll-off bass output is exactly as it should be.
Keith
Flat in room means there is no roll-off bass output is exactly as it should be.
Keith
Fitzcaraldo215
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Yes, Peter Aczel once said if woofers were "fast", they would be tweeters. But, I think Sal is correctly pointing to the question of bass output volumes at low distortion. Personally, I would think Kii's would likely benefit from good subwoofers, as would most any other speaker, even many large ones.
The Kiis not only use EQ for the bass, but also motion feedback.
The notion of "fast" or "slow" could also be related to phase and timing, where "fast" are the ones where all frequencies are pulled into line.
Except I was forgetting that phase isn't audible...
Fitzcaraldo215
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That is a good thing. But, it will not move more air at high volumes compared to larger drivers.
You were talking about distortion. Motion feedback means the distortion is reduced, quite possibly below that of conventional larger drivers up until - of course - the maximum displacement and SPL are reached. If the maximum SPL is adequate, however, then this system will not be distinguishable from a larger driver.
Fast and slow subs has always confused me. I finally decided minimal overshoot and ringing, i.e. a well-damped response, would make a sub sound "fast" compared to one that would "ring" after a transient attack (low damping factor) and muddy the bass. That resulted in me designing a DIY servo sub in the early 1980's to better mate with my Maggies; it had much cleaner transient response. Not that servo is the only way to go, but it allowed me to tailor the response and lower distortion as well as produce ~16 Hz at -3 dB in a fairly small box with a 12" woofer. I used a 12" dual-coil driver from an Infinity IRS, using the second coil for feedback. It did the job for me.
In listening tests, it bested many popular subs of the day, and measurements were good although I don't really recall the details after all this time. However, the difference was insignificant on most musical content, though chosen material with sharp bass or percussive transients would highlight its advantages. The work in developing the sub revealed to me a lot of LF content in music that was generally neglected, like the LF percussives from plucked strings, piano hammers, and such -- even the whack of a high-hat cymbal had LF stuff, but of course it all had to be close-mic'd and all that jazz so again in the real world probably not much to hear. One of those things ("muddy" bass) more noticeable by its absence.
The biggest benefit of the servo IME/IMO was actually the reduction of harmonic distortion. Significant 2HD made many subs sound "louder", "fuller", "richer" but it was distortion folk were hearing...
In listening tests, it bested many popular subs of the day, and measurements were good although I don't really recall the details after all this time. However, the difference was insignificant on most musical content, though chosen material with sharp bass or percussive transients would highlight its advantages. The work in developing the sub revealed to me a lot of LF content in music that was generally neglected, like the LF percussives from plucked strings, piano hammers, and such -- even the whack of a high-hat cymbal had LF stuff, but of course it all had to be close-mic'd and all that jazz so again in the real world probably not much to hear. One of those things ("muddy" bass) more noticeable by its absence.
The biggest benefit of the servo IME/IMO was actually the reduction of harmonic distortion. Significant 2HD made many subs sound "louder", "fuller", "richer" but it was distortion folk were hearing...
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
I always tend to think of "fast" vs "slow" related to the Q of the system tuning frequency, with low Q (e.g. 0.7) being "faster" and high Q (i.e. >1.0) being "slower".
Fitzcaraldo215
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Actually, I know a fair bit about the distortion reduction via motion feedback. But, that is not what I was talking about. Rather, it is the maximum SPL. This is where I, Sal too I think, are questioning what the Kii is capable of. As I said, I suspect it cannot move enough air, motional feedback included. I am sure it does great, especially for a stand mounted speaker of its size. I just think it could benefit from one or more good subwoofers, just like most speakers do.
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Right... granted, you can trade sensitivity for an extended bass shelf, but even with motion feedback, the voicecoils only have so much Xmax.
Yes, you may well be right - it also uses limiting via the DSP.
Each Kii uses four high excursion drivers , Devialet do much the same with their 'Phantoms'
Keith
Keith
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Sure, but 4 high excursion 6" drivers isn't the same displacement as 4 high excursion 12" drivers, like you can get in some of the beefier push-pull dual driver, dual subwoofer setups.
It's no offense to the Kii to say it can't reproduce the same bass as a subwoofer. Most speakers can't -- that's why we have subs.
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