Reliability and build quality of Chinese Vs. Western Amps and DACs? Can you reliably get 15+ years out of a Topping Stack? Or SMSL? Singxer?

[Blumlein 88]

At this point I think the OPs desire is one of:

Cheap, beautiful, and long term reliable. Pick any two of these three.

 

[Quinton595]

The ones made (or company resides and sells) in western countries are obliged to follow them,so I guess RME,Sciit,etc are following them.
Same goes with the devices officially sold by western companies and shops as they have to follow the rules.

The ones sold by Aliex and the likes only needs searching,at lest the ones using mains power.

Here's an example of one of the amps I'm using,I don't know If all of them are obligatory though.

View attachment 365940

And I think they are made in Malaysia.

Oh wow, that's a lot more regulations than I knew existed, thank you for sharing.

Even Bryston will only give you 5 years on digital products,20 years is only on analog.RME is a 6 year warranty,probably as good as it gets on a digital product,I’d expect it to remain repairable by them for many years longer IF parts are available.
With anything digital based that’s a bloody massive if.

For tech that's still being developled, it is disposable, as they're mostly obsoleted way before any EOL caused by their materials or build. Known tech - analogue amps, wired headphones, turntables, passive speakers (or your woodworking tools example) etc your fine. I wouldn't invest into things like expensive DACs or wireless headphones though, as they'll be obsoleted before their materials fail; and if they do fail, good luck getting the parts as the industry will have moved on.

Yeah, see, this is why I actually want analogue equipment. I don't care for digital EQ software in my amp, I don't care for fancy LCD screens, or DSP features.

The thing is, I'm not familiar enough with audio equipment to be able to tell if something actually is digital or analogue in design. I'm assuming that the amps offered by Schiit are, and maybe also Topping. However, once I start seeing digital screens, with equalizers and such, on brands like RME and SMSL and Singxer, I just assume they are more digital in design, but I don't know if this is actually true or not. It could just be a screen, and the rest of the amp is analogue...

Are products like the Schiit Jotunheim 2, Topping 70-line and 90-line, and the amps from SMSL and Singxer analogue?

As for DACs, yeah those are obviously digital, but that's okay, like you said, best not to invest tooooo much money into them.

 

[Quinton595]

At this point I think the OPs desire is one of:

Cheap, beautiful, and long term reliable. Pick any two of these three.

Hahah you might be on to something.

I guess I'm also just trying to establish how much money you do have to spend before you can get reliability.

It seems, based on user reviews, that the $200 price point of the Topping 30-line amps and dacs aren't enough to get you reliability... but what about the $500 of the 70-line?

Like, are the middle to middle-upper-tier offerings from any of these brands sufficient to expect a decent lifespan? Maybe not their smallest, cheapest stuff, but what about their middle offerings?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Hahah you might be on to something.

I guess I'm also just trying to establish how much money you do have to spend before you can get reliability.

It seems, based on user reviews, that the $200 price point of the Topping 30-line amps and dacs aren't enough to get you reliability... but what about the $500 of the 70-line?

Like, are the middle to middle-upper-tier offerings from any of these brands sufficient to expect a decent lifespan? Maybe not their smallest, cheapest stuff, but what about their middle offerings?

It is impossible to say at this point. Some established companies have deserved reputations. Some new ones are fantastic, but you won't know until they've been around a number of years. Some you can see as deficient by taking their gear apart or opening them up.

Not being concerned with the same issues as you, I have a Topping because it was inexpensive and tested to have excellent performance. It has worked for me so far, and if it quits tomorrow not a big deal to me. My approach would be to avoid obvious terrible designs and otherwise if it is cheap and lasts 5 years fine buy another. I also have a moderately expensive RME and Antelope audio devices for different reasons, and needs I had.

There is no rational performance related reason to be against digital EQ or DSP. Maybe a user interface issue in some cases. At the prices you are interested in nothing will have good analog EQ. So it is the same as saying you don't want EQ at all. That is fine, just realize that you won't get EQ. It comes down to price vs performances and digital has flipped everything that way. Other than a basic preamp, or amp everything else will be digital.

One of the trade offs is digital can be cheap, functional and maybe due to the low price only lasts several years. The equivalent analog (and in many cases analog has no possibility of being equivalent at any price) will be many thousands of dollars. Will use far more energy. Will be much larger.

I don't know how you weight all the things you are concerned about. I would say you aren't going to get everything you want for the price you have in mind. So you are going to have to compromise on some parts of it. The gear and its performance has never been this good and this cheap in the past. So I suggest prioritizing your concerns to the two or three most important to you and go from there.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

The thing is, I'm not familiar enough with audio equipment to be able to tell if something actually is digital or analogue in design.

It does not matter if the design is only analogue or an analogue+digital hybrid, if it is designed well enough to be measurably inaudible. If you take an analogue signal and pass it correctly through a well designed modern ADC and then through a well designed modern DAC, you will be unable to hear any difference.

However, once I start seeing digital screens, with equalizers and such, on brands like RME and SMSL and Singxer, I just assume they are more digital in design,

There isn't such a thing in the 21st century as "digital in design". Good designers use the right tool in the right place. I would never use an analogue equaliser (other than sparing use of low-impact tone controls), the only sensible way to perform EQ these days is mathematically in the digital domain. On the other hand, if I wanted a unity gain buffer, I wouldn't use an ADC and DAC combo.

Just because something has a complex display does not mean the audio has been digitally "interfered with". It's perfectly possible to have an analogue-only chain but still have a processor controlling a rich display or even the volume (e.g. a processor controlled switched relay analogue volume control).

 

[Mnyb]

yes the only feasible way to transparently do EQ is to do it mathematically IE in the digital domain before the analog messy uncertain world commence

 

[Sokel]

Oh wow, that's a lot more regulations than I knew existed, thank you for sharing.

There are some more depending the use (stage for example,or inside actives) and environment one must consider:



It really come down to needs,use and each country's regulations.

 

[Mart68]

My dad's audio electronics from Yamaha are 40+ years old and still work just fine with no maintenance.

There's a clue right there. Buy something like that from the used market.

It's from an era when they cared about how long it would last and built it accordingly. And the sound quality is just as good as the modern stuff.

 

[Willem]

I bought my first serious audio system as a student in the mid 1970s: Quad 33/303/FM3 electronics and Quad ESL57 speakers. I am now on my second system: RME ADI-2, Quad 606-2 and Quad 2805 speakers, now with three equalized subwoofers in a much larger room.
I hate gear that breaks down quickly, even if it is cheap. Disposables are bad for the environment, but they are also such a hassle. And in my experience, buying really good quality tends to be cheaper in the long run. On an annual basis, my gear did not cost me that much, and it has probably been cheaper than buying junk that has to be replaced ("upgraded" as they say) every few years. Peter Walker's Quad had smart designs, but manufactured quality was at times indifferent. The good news was that the electronics were built from discrete components, so getting them repaired or refurbished was quite doable. The ESL57 speakers have been fault free (I still have them, in fact). The 2805 speakers have had a by now known problem with the glue, and were quite expensive to get repaired. Fortunately the Dutch importer is very good. The RME ADI-2 has been fault free, and enjoys a stellar software support. And that is probably the most important thing with a digital front end.

 

[Quinton595]

It does not matter if the design is only analogue or an analogue+digital hybrid, if it is designed well enough to be measurably inaudible. If you take an analogue signal and pass it correctly through a well designed modern ADC and then through a well designed modern DAC, you will be unable to hear any difference.

There isn't such a thing in the 21st century as "digital in design". Good designers use the right tool in the right place. I would never use an analogue equaliser (other than sparing use of low-impact tone controls), the only sensible way to perform EQ these days is mathematically in the digital domain. On the other hand, if I wanted a unity gain buffer, I wouldn't use an ADC and DAC combo.

Just because something has a complex display does not mean the audio has been digitally "interfered with". It's perfectly possible to have an analogue-only chain but still have a processor controlling a rich display or even the volume (e.g. a processor controlled switched relay analogue volume control).

Sorry, I was talking about Digital vs analogue solely in terms of manufacturing reliability, not in terms of audio quality.

 

[Willem]

Sorry, I was talking about Digital vs analogue solely in terms of manufacturing reliability, not in terms of audio quality.

There are no obvious differences there. My hunch is that modern gear is more reliable, but harder to repair. For the digital front end, software support is potentially the weak link.

 

[Doodski]

There are no obvious differences there. My hunch is that modern gear is more reliable, but harder to repair. For the digital front end, software support is potentially the weak link.

Every time a additional physical parameter is added means tools are added or to the service station requirements.

For example.

-Upgrade the PCB from thru-hole to hybrid SMD plus thru-hole.
=Need many more tools both passive and powered plus more experience.
-Add in high power PWM switching devices.
=Need more and different tools again.
Result is that a large comprehensive, expensive lab work station is required with multiple sized solder rework tools, a fume hood, visual magnification system(s) and the list goes on.

 

[Quinton595]

Every time a additional physical parameter is added means tools are added or to the service station requirements.

For example.

-Upgrade the PCB from thru-hole to hybrid SMD plus thru-hole.
=Need many more tools both passive and powered plus more experience.
-Add in high power PWM switching devices.
=Need more and different tools again.
Result is that a large comprehensive, expensive lab work station is required with multiple sized solder rework tools, a fume hood, visual magnification system(s) and the list goes on.

I have actually repaired a few of my electronics by re-soldering components that have burnt out or broken off. Why companies insist on fastening their I.O. ports with ONLY the solder connections that actually connect the wiring, and not with a dab of glue or something, I will never understand. The number of electronics I've broken just by pulling the usb cord out of the flimsy usb-c port is two. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it's happened twice.

BTW, I've narrowed my choice of stack down to a few options that I would love for the community to vote on. Would it be inappropriate for me to make yet another post, simply as a poll?

 

[Doodski]

BTW, I've narrowed my choice of stack down to a few options that I would love for the community to vote on. Would it be inappropriate for me to make yet another post, simply as a poll?

That seems a question suitable for a MOD.

 

[johny_2000]

Do you think Schiit is more reliable than these chinese brands?

Definitely not. It is made in the same place, from the same components. Recently, several owners here had to send failed devices back for warranty replacement. And this was only after a short period of acquisition.

 

[MRC01]

Topping and SMSL have excellent measurements at very competitive prices but in my experience:

• They have software/firmware bugs I haven't encountered with devices from US, Canadian or German companies.
• Their software/firmware updates are poorly supported (one update came through a link here on ASR that a year later never showed up on the company's web site).
• The warranty support is quite poor - buy it through Amazon and at least get 30 days.
• I've had hardware failures after just over a year.

Based on that, if I want budget gear I'll go with JDS or Schiit, both of which have great support and none of the issues I've had with SMSL and Topping, but are still competitive on performance & price. Even if their quality isn't any better (and in my experience it actually is better), at least they have excellent warranty support.

For example, when I found a software/firmware bug in a Topping DAC, it was a real hassle reporting it, only to find that they basically ignored my request and never fixed it. Knowing it would never be fixed, nor did they offer to replace or refund it, fortunately I bought it through Amazon so I returned it. In contrast, when I found a problem with the JDS subjective 3, slightly elevated distortion (-60 dB) in standby mode, they responded immediately, acknowledged the issue, changed the design with a second relay to fix the problem, and sent me a replacement board & parts, all at no charge.

For non-budget "high end" gear, I'd go with US, Canada, Germany or similar country, pay the extra cost for the long-term durability and peace of mind that comes with it. For example my Adcom power amp is 30 years old and still measures & performs like new. My Magnepan speakers are 24 years old and still measure & perform like new. Both companies are still around and reply promptly when I've have questions over the years. Other companies like Bryston, RME, Lake People, etc. have similar high build quality & support.

Regarding the OP's original question, for me it would be RME all the way, no doubt about it.

 

[CedarX]

I have actually repaired a few of my electronics by re-soldering components that have burnt out or broken off.

So, you repair stuff... Great! How does it factor in your question of finding the most reliable product with 15+ years lifespan?
Are you saying you are after the most durable and serviceable product? This is different from the most reliable product...

BTW, I've narrowed my choice of stack down to a few options that I would love for the community to vote on. Would it be inappropriate for me to make yet another post, simply as a poll?

I am looking forward to seeing the poll... Maybe, I'll finally understand what is this you are seeking.

 

[Quinton595]

Topping and SMSL have excellent measurements at very competitive prices but in my experience:

• They have software/firmware bugs I haven't encountered with devices from US, Canadian or German companies.
• Their software/firmware updates are poorly supported (one update came through a link here on ASR that a year later never showed up on the company's web site).
• The warranty support is quite poor - buy it through Amazon and at least get 30 days.
• I've had hardware failures after just over a year.

Based on that, if I want budget gear I'll go with JDS or Schiit, both of which have great support and none of the issues I've had with SMSL and Topping, but are still competitive on performance & price. Even if their quality isn't any better (and in my experience it actually is better), at least they have excellent warranty support.

For example, when I found a software/firmware bug in a Topping DAC, it was a real hassle reporting it, only to find that they basically ignored my request and never fixed it. Knowing it would never be fixed, nor did they offer to replace or refund it, fortunately I bought it through Amazon so I returned it. In contrast, when I found a problem with the JDS subjective 3, slightly elevated distortion (-60 dB) in standby mode, they responded immediately, acknowledged the issue, changed the design with a second relay to fix the problem, and sent me a replacement board & parts, all at no charge.

For non-budget "high end" gear, I'd go with US, Canada, Germany or similar country, pay the extra cost for the long-term durability and peace of mind that comes with it. For example my Adcom power amp is 30 years old and still measures & performs like new. My Magnepan speakers are 24 years old and still measure & perform like new. Both companies are still around and reply promptly when I've have questions over the years. Other companies like Bryston, RME, Lake People, etc. have similar high build quality & support.

Regarding the OP's original question, for me it would be RME all the way, no doubt about it.

Thank you for your feedback.

I've narrowed my list to:

• Schiit Modius E + Jotunheim 2 ($850)
• SMSL HO200 / DO200 ($1000)
• Topping L70 / E70 Velvet ($1130)
• SMSL H300 / D300 ($1250)

The JDS products are out because they have no matching power amps, or ways to switch off the preamp output when using headphones, and the RME product is beyond my budget, even if I stretch said budget.

 

[Quinton595]

So, you repair stuff... Great! How does it factor in your question of finding the most reliable product with 15+ years lifespan?
Are you saying you are after the most durable and serviceable product? This is different from the most reliable product...


I am looking forward to seeing the poll... Maybe, I'll finally understand what is this you are seeking.

I don't have a hot-air-rework station, so I can't repair SMDs, only through-hole components, and even then, only if they're spaced far enough away from other delicate components that I can get my soldering iron in there.

For this, and other reasons, I'd still prefer that which is reliable over that which is easily serviceable. Prevention is always better than remediation, right?

You think I should make a poll? I'm worried the community is getting angry with all my threads.

 

[MRC01]

Thank you for your feedback.

I've narrowed my list to:

• Schiit Modius E + Jotunheim 2 ($850)
• SMSL HO200 / DO200 ($1000)
• Topping L70 / E70 Velvet ($1130)
• SMSL H300 / D300 ($1250)

The JDS products are out because they have no matching power amps, or ways to switch off the preamp output when using headphones, and the RME product is beyond my budget, even if I stretch said budget.

From that list, I'd go with the Jotunheim, though if you get it with the internal DAC it will be less expensive. Schiit revised and improved the internal DAC card and it now has similar performance to the Modius. Then you have an AIO (all in one) solution. And with an internal power supply, no wall-warts. This is what I use at work. The only drawback is that the digital input is USB only. Put differently, the advantage to the Modius is that you also get SPDIF (coax & toslink) inputs.

PS: if you're willing to spend $1200 then the RME is a no-brainer. Not only the best in build quality & support, but also with useful built-in DSP functions. It is a step above anything else in your list. I see an RME ADI-2 FS on Amazon for $948, which is a steal. "Renewed - Excellent" means it's used, probably returned from another customer. His loss is your gain!