[DAC battle] E30 vs M300 mkII, along with L30

[Jose Hidalgo]

That is actually pretty cool. I do wonder why you need them at the same time, though

Picture me and my wife, listening to the same music at the same time, on two different headphones, each one with its own EQ.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

@Jimbob54 I agree with you, there's no point sonically (and by that I mean "ear-wise"). But we may want to know which one is better measurement-wise, even if it's just to please our brains. Because if we're just gonna say that "they all are transparent and sound great", then Amir may as well stop doing reviews and close ASR. The point here is to discuss rationally (hence the "science" in ASR) on those little extra dB or % of distortion, even if our ears can't really hear them. For subjective reviews there's already plenty of sites.

 

[Jimbob54]

@Jimbob54 I agree with you, there's no point sonically (and by that I mean "ear-wise"). But we may want to know which one is better measurement-wise, even if it's just to please our brains. Because if we're just gonna say that "they all are transparent and sound great", then Amir may as well stop doing reviews and close ASR. The point here is to discuss rationally (hence the "science" in ASR) on those little extra dB or % of distortion, even if our ears can't really hear them. For subjective reviews there's already plenty of sites.

I totally agree. They have been measured here. So there is no need to ask the question, is there? What is there to discuss? What do you mean by "pair better"? What information will this thread give you the measurements and resultant threads wont?

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

I totally agree. They have been measured here. So there is no need to ask the question, is there? What is there to discuss? What do you mean by "pair better"? What information will this thread give you the measurements and resultant threads wont?

Once again, I said this already in this very thread:

I guess we should talk about the relative importance of the tests. Should multitone (@-110 to -130 dB roughly) matter more than SINAD + Distortion + Power output combined ?

Measurements are one thing. But not every ASR member is an expert that can immediately understand their relative importance and effectively use them to wisely compare two different devices and choose the 'best' one, when some measurements are better on device 1 and some others are better on device 2. That is what I'm talking about. I hope a member can still ask such things without another member saying that according to HIS opinion "there is no need to ask the question" !

As for pairing, I am of course talking about objective stuff, not subjective stuff. The combination (hence 'pairing') of a DAC and a HP amp provides a given output, for a given HP impedance, a given volume and a given EQ (which implies a negative gain). And that output may or not be enough to effectively drive that given HP. That is what I'm talking about when I say 'pairing'.

As you can see, there is indeed a need to ask the question, and thankfully I don't need your approval to do so. But if for whatever reason you don't agree or you don't want to help in that matter, you are of course free to stop posting. That's all I can say.

 

[Jimbob54]

Once again, I said this already in this very thread:

Measurements are one thing. But not every ASR member is an expert that can immediately understand their relative importance and effectively use them to wisely compare two different devices and choose the 'best' one, when some measurements are better on device 1 and some others are better on device 2. That is what I'm talking about. I hope a member can still ask such things without another member saying that according to HIS opinion "there is no need to ask the question" !

As for pairing, I am of course talking about objective stuff, not subjective stuff. The combination (hence 'pairing') of a DAC and a HP amp provides a given output, for a given HP impedance, a given volume and a given EQ (which implies a negative gain). And that output may or not be enough to effectively drive that given HP. That is what I'm talking about when I say 'pairing'.

As you can see, there is indeed a need to ask the question, and thankfully I don't need your approval to do so. But if for whatever reason you don't agree or you don't want to help in that matter, you are of course free to stop posting. That's all I can say.

I think you just look for validation of your purchasing decisions. That's fine, just don't badge everything as an exploration of the underpinning science.

And don't be a prima donna and shit on the design of something suggested because it hits your objective requirement (xlr inputs, good measurements, decent price) but not your exquisite visual tastes. You know that's purely subjective, don't you?

As for pairing, don't dress it up. You don't mention the headphones you're driving with this combo and the vast majority of these dacs over rca will be 2v output. Which is referred to in the measurements. So I think you're still looking for someone to tell you e30 plus L30 is the best possible combo you can buy. As I've said, you pays your money, you takes your choice.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

This is getting off-topic, so if you have further questions for me, I kindly suggest that you PM me and I'll gladly reply In the meantime, I'm going to answer one last time here.

Of course I'm looking for validation, and of course it's fine, thank you. AND I'm also exploring and learning! I'm an engineer (but I'm better at mechanics and abstract math than at electronics) and I've spent literally all my life learning stuff. I'm curious about most things, and at this point I'm definitely on ASR to learn, not to teach. So I ask questions. Always have. And nobody's forced to answer.

Also, it's not only about me. I occasionally help friends and family who don't necessarily want to do extensive Internet research to find info. This very week I've advised my nephew (who has different requirements) on audio gear. But that's stuff that I don't need to mention explicitly here. So you may have the impression that I have a lot of requirements, but some of them aren't for me.

One last thing : I'm not a "Too many DACs> Too many amps> Too many headphones" guy. 25 years ago I spent a lot of money on Hi-Fi gear, and it lasted until now. Over the next 6-9 months I'll be spending a lot of money on Hi-Fi gear, and I expect it to last for at least 10 years (or maybe 25). Given that, of course I want to be CERTAIN that I'm doing the right choice. Be it a 10 K€ pair of speakers (which I will listen to, preferrably at my own place), a 500 € pair of cans, or a 250 € DAC/HP Amp combo. I don't care about the price of the device, I care about being CERTAIN that it's the right choice FOR ME. Because like you said, I'm the one that's paying.

So yes, I ask a lot of questions, and I'll probably keep on doing so. But this is not only about me. It's about learning, improving my knowledge, and eventually being able to advise some of my friends and family.

Now about design, I'm sorry to say this, but I'll sh*t on design (in your own words, not mine) every freaking time I want (not very often, but yes, sometimes):

• Maybe because I really don't like a given design (like the two I mentioned) and I just don't see it in my pretty living room (plus my wife has an opinion too). For instance the L30 may be amazing, but I can promise you that if it had the design of the Magnius or the Archel I would NOT take it. I'm lucky that besides being a great amp, its design is acceptable.
• Maybe because thankfully we have a lot of great choices at the moment (like Soniclife said in this topic), so design may be a valid criteria too for once. That wasn't the case 10 or 20 years ago.
• And maybe because I have additional requirements that I don't need to mention here. For instance I have a width requirement where width < 12 cm for fixed furniture reasons (so E30/L30 are OK, M300 is OK too, etc.). I didn't mention it because the devices I'm asking info about already fit that requirement

As for headphones, come on! You know the three cans I'm buying, since I've explicitly told everybody in the topic you mentioned, HERE. I've always been transparent on that matter. Spoiler: the more difficult to drive is arguably the HD600, which has:

• Sensitivity by voltage: 105.10 dB/V SPL
• Sensitivity by power: 100.57 dB/mW SPL
• Average impedance: 352.18 ohm

(stats over nearly 500 HD600 cans : https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/user-report.php?id=819#gsc.tab=0 )

There you have it. Now can you please stop judging my motivations? I'm always open to giving additional info, as long as people aren't trying to judge me for whatever (bad) reason. Thank you, and I hope you'll get my message.

 

[Jimbob54]

To get back on topic then, buy the M300 and L30. Or the E30 and the L30. Or any permutation of the well measuring DACs and amps out there for 100 to 150 each . Or do a poll. Im still not sure how anybody elses opinion on that decision helps you any. They both put out 2v of audibly transparent signal over RCA. The M300 has XLR too and pretty colours as yet unavailable from Topping. Thats what $80 currently buys you.

The one thing I will 100% guarantee you on- within 6 months or less of you opening your wallet, something better will come along. The issue of the "best" becomes slightly irrelevant from that perspective.

And for the record , your initial response to John Yang was where you got my goat. Rudeness and ignorance isnt a good combination. Your response to the Geshelli suggestion just cemented my view.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

To me it's one-worded responses that are frequently rude, and I don't care who's writing them. People should at least be able to form a sentence. In John's case I had a doubt because I didn't understand that single word (well, not the word itself but what it meant on this topic), which is why I kindly asked for an elaboration. He elaborated, he argumented solidly, and all is good now, so I don't see what you would have to say on that matter as it's not even your business. For the record I have the utmost respect for John as demonstrated many times here already, so maybe you should focus your attention on people who haven't (you may know who I am thinking about).

One last thing : next time you feel like answering "buy them both, or any permutation", just resist that urge and don't. Thank you. Although I'll agree with you on one thing : in 6 months there'll probably be something better. Just like in computer-land with Moore's law. Except that in both cases we are slowly but surely approaching the physical limits. Well, maybe not for computers, because new technologies such as quantum computing may increase power considerably. But for DACs and Amps, once we reach such high levels of performance, it's hard to say that we can still do "better" (except if we can get bionic ears at some point, lol). For instance 16 bits only allow for 98 dB SNR or SINAD. Granted 24 bits would allow for 146 dB. But today 99% of everybody's music is 16-bit, so...

But again, if you're posting just to tell people "who cares ? in 6 months there'll be something better", maybe you should resist that urge too.