Bruno Putzeys reaches out to the subjectivists

[amirm]

You're misreading me. All I'm saying is that if someone has a particular listening experience, I've no business denying that.

But we do have business to deny that. When you write: "Many of these compatibility issues -- where people say this preamp sounds good with that CD player -- some of these mysterious interactions actually happen through the power wiring, and sometimes even through direct coupling from a power cable into a speaker cable."

Surely the first thing go check there is reliability of said listening test than assuming it is real and chasing power wiring, power cable coupling into speaker wire, etc. The former is almost a sure thing (listening test was improper) whereas the latter (interference) is almost unheard of.

I realize in a different situation you have to speak differently but here, we do need to stick to what we can prove rather than lending technical hand to audio myths.

 

[strat_80]

So are your products Kosher ???

Nice: It might be that the Ayre was vegan and the Hypex amps Kosher. Hence clicking pops and hym - I mean hum

PS - I am a new member - find the forum super informative. Lot of the tech details fly above my head.

Thank you

 

[Sal1950]

Lot of the tech details fly above my head.

Me too! Just take you time to listen and learn. A lot of the positions on audio reproduction are different here than you may have read on other sites.
We try to deal in facts, listening impressions that can be supported by either measurement or bias controlled blind listening tests.
Flights of fantasy and imagination are easily encouraged elsewhere.
Welcome to ASR strat_80

 

[BDWoody]

PS - I am a new member - find the forum super informative. Lot of the tech details fly above my head.

Mine too...
I pick up what I can...

 

[Enkay25]

Of all the forums I participated/read/depended, ASR is the most sound one ....which I depend entirely to base any of my decisions on audio. There is a profound integrity, fundamental and solid rationale .....in this forum which otherwise is hard to be observed in any other forums.

ASR is highly informative and educative.
Hence having a daily read of ASR has become a daily routine for me.

 

[orangejello]

The simplistic THD + N only view is a problem part of which is an attitude (IMO) that if it is not a canned AP test it is not to be trusted. There are many ways of exercising amplifier (or DAC for that matter) behaviors that require custom bench fixtures and someone who understands what is going on.

I see that you are an "Audio Luminary" and a "Technical Expert". So I am hoping that your above statement has some authority here on this website.

While I really appreciate this website, I have deep reservations about it as well. It is one thing for people who have a lot of education and experience to subscribe to the "simplistic THD + N only view" - a view that is questioned by equally educated and serious people. But is quite another to have a small army of tag-along acolytes, who have no background or understanding of the complexities of the subject matter, quite religiously parroting this point of view - often sprinkled with contempt and hostility.

I am disturbed and rattled by this behavior because I see it being expressed every time I turn on the news. While I am down with Bruno on his plea for secularism, that is just one dimension of the problem with religiosity. Religion is just one expression of what seems to be the need that many people have for some form of certainty and authority. Assuaging this need often results in the death of curiosity and tolerance, and what is born from it is bigotry and ultimately, hatred. While the "religious" wars within the audio community are benign, this kind of behavior as expressed in the larger body politic is extremely dangerous.

And Bruno, I very much appreciate what you wrote:

"Folks who laud the West on its Judaeo-Christian roots have got it spectacularly wrong. The West only really came out of the bush when it discovered secularism."

You surely cannot be disparaged as a "marketeer". Nobody that puts marketing above their principles makes statement like that.

It is also interesting to note that a major theme that is peppered through out the six volumes of Edward Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" (an amazing literary work published in the late 1700's) is that religion is one of the fundamental reasons that Rome (and hence the "West") re-entered the bush.

 

[Rja4000]

But we do have business to deny that. When you write: "Many of these compatibility issues -- where people say this preamp sounds good with that CD player -- some of these mysterious interactions actually happen through the power wiring, and sometimes even through direct coupling from a power cable into a speaker cable."

Surely the first thing go check there is reliability of said listening test than assuming it is real and chasing power wiring, power cable coupling into speaker wire, etc. The former is almost a sure thing (listening test was improper) whereas the latter (interference) is almost unheard of.

Hi

I guess if @Bruno Putzeys says that, he has done some measurements that demonstrates something is actually happening.

And what's of interest to me is: Bruno, what did you measure and what did you find about possible interactions?

Learning from knowledgeable people is always interesting.

 

[splattened]

Does anyone else cringe when reading the first page of this thread?

 

[oivavoi]

Thank you so much for an excellent response to the issues that were raised in this thread that I started a couple of years ago, @Bruno Putzeys ! One may discuss how much one should indulge audiophiliac listening impressions, of course, vs how much they should be challenged. I'm generally inclined to side with the hard-hitting no-nonsense approach of @amirm, but I see that you are in a somewhat different position given that you actually have to sell products to a certain market.

Just one small comment on the statement below, which actually is very close to my own field of research and expertise (but which has nothing to do with audio):

Folks who laud the West on its Judaeo-Christian roots have got it spectacularly wrong. The West only really came out of the bush when it discovered secularism.

Quite a lot of researchers would argue that you get the direction of causality wrong here. Secularism has historically emerged as a result of prosperity and security - not the other way round. People become secular after their societies have become well-functioning and prosperous, but it's not necessarily the case that societies become well-functioning and prosperous because people become secular. This is probably the seminal work on the issue: https://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Secular-Religion-Worldwide-Cambridge/dp/1107648378
And here is one of the most methodologically sound explorations of it I've come across: https://academic.oup.com/ej/article-abstract/129/622/2295/5490325

Ok, off-topic social science nerding over.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

FWIW and tangentially related (from Slipped Disc):

Kaufmann’s got new hi-fi
Posted: 01 Oct 2019 03:19 AM PDT
He says: When I listen to edit files of my recordings, for approval or additional notes, it is very important to me to hear the smallest details. In preparation of my new album-release in October I was once again grateful for having my Grimm LS1be speakers. While they function perfectly as monitor-speakers, at the same time they do not sound too persistent or direct, so you can just lean back, relax and enjoy music on a daily basis – a combination which is extremely rare. The speakers are also aesthetically appealing, so they blend nicely with my other furniture. I am often astounded by their quality which renders even the simplest digital file streams into smooth, warm, almost analog-sounding bits of joy.

 

[oivavoi]

Does anyone else cringe when reading the first page of this thread?

If we only challenge authorities we disagree with - subjectivist gurus for example - but don't challenge authorities we tend to admire, we're on a slippery slope to somewhere.

 

[Purité Audio]

FWIW and tangentially related (from Slipped Disc):

Kaufmann’s got new hi-fi
Posted: 01 Oct 2019 03:19 AM PDT
He says: When I listen to edit files of my recordings, for approval or additional notes, it is very important to me to hear the smallest details. In preparation of my new album-release in October I was once again grateful for having my Grimm LS1be speakers. While they function perfectly as monitor-speakers, at the same time they do not sound too persistent or direct, so you can just lean back, relax and enjoy music on a daily basis – a combination which is extremely rare. The speakers are also aesthetically appealing, so they blend nicely with my other furniture. I am often astounded by their quality which renders even the simplest digital file streams into smooth, warm, almost analog-sounding bits of joy.

View attachment 34963

He obviously has excellent taste.
Keith

 

[oivavoi]

He obviously has excellent taste.
Keith

If I had the money, I know very well which speakers I would have bought on the spot. Lucky guy, that Kaufmann.

 

[Purité Audio]

They are good, but don’t seem to attract as much exposure as they deserve, I would like to compare my BE’s with the notional control subs to my original LS1’s.
Keith

 

[Cosmik]

View attachment 34963

Another one of those echoey* rooms.

(* OK, I know it's reverberation...)

 

[DonH56]

Another one of those echoey* rooms.

(* OK, I know it's reverberation...)

No, no, no... "A "live" room, with visions of butterflies skipping across the flowers in the field, joyful children running in the breeze, and an uplifting sound never achieved by a "dead" room with its connotation of flies on a rotting carcass. Reflected sound filling the room with music and nary a thought of that objectivist blather about SBIR, comb filtering, and other such scientific mumbo-jumbo. Silly boy.

 

[Purité Audio]

Grimm recommend and the speakers software accommodates a severe 45° Toe-in, crossing a metre in front, to minimise lateral reflections.
Keith

 

[SIY]

While I really appreciate this website, I have deep reservations about it as well. It is one thing for people who have a lot of education and experience to subscribe to the "simplistic THD + N only view"...

I have yet to meet one of these "people."

 

[splattened]

If we only challenge authorities we disagree with - subjectivist gurus for example - but don't challenge authorities we tend to admire, we're on a slippery slope to somewhere.

I like your original post and the premise.

The cringey parts are painting the guy like some calculated marketeer, and then digging up some off-topic blog posts and prefixing them with inflammatory insinuations (which are also completely inaccurate from what I can tell after reading them) because ???. Really bizarre.

 

[Rja4000]

If we only challenge authorities we disagree with - subjectivist gurus for example - but don't challenge authorities we tend to admire, we're on a slippery slope to somewhere.

Well, it's all a matter of respect, I think.

Process of intent, in general, is not exactly a practice that will allow to see your (good people) community grow.

So now that we have him answering (or starting to answer), why not to ask what exactly he meant with that and how far this is based on facts he could actually check in measurement - as he is saying ?
There is a risk to learn something useful.
Or to lose support of an admired authority, as you (as for me, accurately) described him, if we just continue this guesses-based-blaming-game between us.