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Bruno Putzeys reaches out to the subjectivists

oivavoi

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I just read an interesting interview from 2014 with Bruno Putzeys, the man behind the hypex amps and the Kii Three, of course.

part 1: http://www.soundstageultra.com/inde...s-of-mola-mola-hypex-and-grimm-audio-part-one
part 2: http://www.soundstageultra.com/inde...s-of-mola-mola-hypex-and-grimm-audio-part-two

Putzeys talks about his amplifiers, his approach in general, etc. What was particularly interesting to me, was that Putzeys seems to take your average audiophile's listening impressions at face value. Never mind the blind tests showing that people mostly can't distinguish between amps, that some amps just are better on paper and so on - he actually seems to think that some of the "golden ears" were right:

"...I came to realize that feedback [in amplifiers] had unjustly been given a bad rap in audio, and that you could actually use it to your advantage in terms of subjective sonic result.Of course, the next question is how to explain that when so many people disagree with that point of view. You can’t just go around saying, “Hey, I’ve made a negative-feedback amplifier that sounds great, so you are all wrong.” You have to accept that, for those people who say they tried feedback and it didn’t sound good, they had real experiences -- they didn’t make it up or start a religion. People have really, honestly heard what they have heard, and what they heard didn’t sound good".

He also claims that if there are listening experiences that can't properly be explained by "textbook theory", then that theory is probably incomplete:

"...the people who say that “in theory” it shouldn’t matter, they just look at one small corner in one particular textbook, where it doesn’t mention all these other things. Usually, where theory and practice deviate, it just means that your theory hasn’t gotten into enough theoretical detail. So far, I have not yet bumped into anything in terms of audible differences that I, or anyone with me, could hear that did not at some point connect with established theory and known physics -- by which I mean ordinary street-level physics, none of your fancy quantum stuff. You really do not need to invent laws of physics from a parallel universe to explain things. And you don’t have to excuse yourself to say that theory does not connect with practice. If you look close enough, you will find [the connection]. If practice and theory seem to deviate, you better have a sharp look at your theory."

Which is what he did, he claims.
He also claims that some of the experiences people have with "matching" etc might also be real - it's just that they got the explanations all wrong:

"Many of these compatibility issues -- where people say this preamp sounds good with that CD player -- some of these mysterious interactions actually happen through the power wiring, and sometimes even through direct coupling from a power cable into a speaker cable. This, then, does to an extent explain why people put such an inordinate effort into speaker cables, and cables in general. All I can say is that once you realize you are looking at these crosstalk issues as one of the reasons for a sonic difference, you might want to do some more targeted experimenting, because I believe most cable manufacturers just construct things and listen to them without really understanding what’s behind them."

In a way, this goes back to the thread about blindtesting procedures. Is Putzeys right that audiophiles have had these very real experiences, and that it reflected back on something objective, that it's not all placebophilia? I'm divided on this. Now Putzeys' preferred solution to these things has nothing to do with subjectivism of course. He tries to find rational solutions. Of course, he has vested interests in claiming that his own products actually solve all these problems the subjectivists thought they had. But still. I'm not entirely sure what to think.

Any thoughts?
 
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oivavoi

oivavoi

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If I was trying to sell amplifiers that used a huge amount of negative feedback, I, too would write something similar. It's good marketing.

Note: no actual data.

Agreed. I just have so much respect for Putzeys' engineering prowess that I take his arguments seriously. But thats just the halo effect/argument from authority, so it doesn't hold any actual weight.
 

Thomas savage

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If I was trying to sell amplifiers that used a huge amount of negative feedback, I, too would write something similar. It's good marketing.

Note: no actual data.
By reputation he's not famed for PR rehtoric, in fact the opposite so I'd view his comments with a good deal less cynicism personally.

It would be great if he popped in here but that's extremely unlikely unfortunately.
 
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oivavoi

oivavoi

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By reputation he's not famed for PR rehtoric, in fact the opposite so I'd view his comments with a good deal less cynicism personally.

It would be great if he popped in here but that's extremely unlikely unfortunately.

That's my impression also. But the fact that someone makes the best amplifiers ever made (probably) doesn't necessarily make them into experts on psychoacoustics and audibility. Still, I think it's interesting to read his reflections on this.
 

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There is no question that he is wrong about the statements you quoted. He leaves no place for sighted listening to be wrong. As noted, he has to make a living and that has a way of corrupting one's views.
 

amirm

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For a person with his means, it should be trivial to setup a blind test to demonstrate what he is saying. Of course he is not going to do that as that would deter the very customers he is going after.
 

Thomas savage

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For a person with his means, it should be trivial to setup a blind test to demonstrate what he is saying. Of course he is not going to do that as that would deter the very customers he is going after.
What means are they?

Generally small audio companies like kii or mola mola don't have easy access to huge R&D budgets and mass blind testing.

The individuals tend to use what they tested when working at the more established manufacturers ( Philips in the case) and when they go it alone or start up with a little investment just expand on the areas they were already working on..

Of course Bruno making a speaker is a complete departure from anything I know of that he's done before. I very much doubt he had the resources for development you seem to insinuate. I think it likely he combined his understanding of theory with very small scale listening test.. Ie him at home comparing things to a reference.

The kicker there is when we are left on our own ( so without large scale independent blind tests or any sort of check and balance ) we tend to go on a journey up the garden path, irrespective of how learned we might be.

Have any of you got a actual argument against his designs , their merit from a audio engineering POV? Or are we just hand waving based a a interview from 3 years ago...
 
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oivavoi

oivavoi

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There is no question that he is wrong about the statements you quoted. He leaves no place for sighted listening to be wrong.

Valid point. One simply can't deny that sighted listening frequently leads astray. The question remains, I think, whether there is/was a kernel of correct observations in the sighted listenings of the subjectivists. I think these are diffficult questions.
 

Thomas savage

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Valid point. One simply can't deny that sighted listening frequently leads astray. The question remains, I think, whether there is/was a kernel of correct observations in the sighted listenings of the subjectivists. I think these are diffficult questions.
If I had the expertise I'd leave out personal listening tests altogether, just design the best you can keeping within known understanding and respecting your objectives and release the product.

Surely we have done all the blind testing to understand how things work by now? Can't we just use the information and knowledge to make the products? Cut the human out of that phase completely..
 

Purité Audio

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He was part of the team that designed the LS1 ( Grimm) I hold him and his work in the highest regard,
Keith
 

Blumlein 88

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If you read his earlier articles, interviews and see his ideas from a decade or so back when he was with Philips they read like some completely different person vs newer interviews since he has his own high end company or worked with people like Grimm. The answer is extremely simple. His work and design ability is at a very high level. Nevertheless, he has become the Smart Engineer. His products are still top notch, but don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Play the game, say the right thing, spend more time developing an aura of mystery rather than spilling out the hard numbers. It opens up pocketbooks.

spinal_tap_amps.png
 

Blumlein 88

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If I had the expertise I'd leave out personal listening tests altogether, just design the best you can keeping within known understanding and respecting your objectives and release the product.

Surely we have done all the blind testing to understand how things work by now? Can't we just use the information and knowledge to make the products? Cut the human out of that phase completely..

He was quoted in some earlier interviews he designed his amps without any listening. When pressed he said he had customers that would tell him if anything was wrong. When asked further he indicated they didn't find any problems. I don't see anything about his newer designs to think he does differently. He simply shades his answers about such matters differently than before. Even in the OP's quotes it is rather vague hand waving that some dubious claims might under some circumstances might relate to something real that someone could have heard. He does indeed find solutions rationally. More than that he is just saying this not to piss off people who buy expensive gear. A way to sneak in a rational product without telling your customers they have it all wrong.
 

Thomas savage

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He was quoted in some earlier interviews he designed his amps without any listening. When pressed he said he had customers that would tell him if anything was wrong. When asked further he indicated they didn't find any problems. I don't see anything about his newer designs to think he does differently. He simply shades his answers about such matters differently than before. Even in the OP's quotes it is rather vague hand waving that some dubious claims might under some circumstances might relate to something real that someone could have heard. He does indeed find solutions rationally. More than that he is just saying this not to piss off people who buy expensive gear. A way to sneak in a rational product without telling your customers they have it all wrong.
Yes he's clever on that, saying he's never not found a rational explanation and all that needs knowing is known ( or at least that's how I read it) .

Maybe he's been to the marketing demons after all, but who cares as long as no audiophool BS gets into his work.

@watchnerd level of cynicism was appropriate, I'm trying to give up cynicism as a new year resolution :D
 

Sal1950

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Sal1950

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Not being an engineer or having a tech background, I've read his comments about 3 times now and came away not understanding what his points are?
I guess that's as intended.
 

Cosmik

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What was particularly interesting to me, was that Putzeys seems to take your average audiophile's listening impressions at face value. Never mind the blind tests showing that people mostly can't distinguish between amps, that some amps just are better on paper and so on - he actually seems to think that some of the "golden ears" were right
Yes, I saw that stuff before, and I concluded that he might just be "playing the game" as Blumlein says. But, you never know...
 
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