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Bi-amp front speakers with receiver (internal) and external integrated amp?

MaxwellsEq

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What is "c" ?
I attempted Googling that and found no details about what it could possibly be.

Thanks in advance @MaxwellsEq. :D
little c is a common shortening of "circa" meaning approximately.

It's a bit like:
e.g. stands for exempli gratia
i.e. stands for id est
etc. stands for et cetera
 

Doodski

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little c is a common shortening of "circa" meaning approximately.

It's a bit like:
e.g. stands for exempli gratia
i.e. stands for id est
etc. stands for et cetera
Ohhh. OK. Thank you... :D Interesting and now I know. Cool.

I understand the rational of the electromagnetic operation of MM versus MC and their respective gain specs and I think I have the very basic physics of the two cartridge types understood. It's not something I ever actually used though because @ that time era when I used a phonograph my audio gear mentors advised me to only use MM for reasons of my budget, the life expectancy of MM versus MC as well as the stylus replacement being possible with MM. I am of the understanding MC do not have replaceable stylus. Is that correct? Does MM actually last longer than MC?
 

MaxwellsEq

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Ohhh. OK. Thank you... :D Interesting and now I know. Cool.

I understand the rational of the electromagnetic operation of MM versus MC and their respective gain specs and I think I have the very basic physics of the two cartridge types understood. It's not something I ever actually used though because @ that time era when I used a phonograph my audio gear mentors advised me to only use MM for reasons of my budget, the life expectancy of MM versus MC as well as the stylus replacement being possible with MM. I am of the understanding MC do not have replaceable stylus. Is that correct? Does MM actually last longer than MC?
So we're a bit off topic! Generally MM {think "fixed coil"} have replaceable stylus (and sometimes an upgrade path, spherical to elliptical to fineline). MC {think "fixed magnet"} don't have replaceable stylus. But my "MM" cartridge doesn't have replaceable stylus! As to lifetime, stylus wear should be broadly similar.
 

Doodski

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So we're a bit off topic! Generally MM {think "fixed coil"} have replaceable stylus (and sometimes an upgrade path, spherical to elliptical to fineline). MC {think "fixed magnet"} don't have replaceable stylus. But my "MM" cartridge doesn't have replaceable stylus! As to lifetime, stylus wear should be broadly similar.
OK... Thank you for clarifying those details. They've been nagging questions for decades. :D I appreciate the information. >@^_*@<
 

DonH56

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little c is a common shortening of "circa" meaning approximately.

It's a bit like:
e.g. stands for exempli gratia
i.e. stands for id est
etc. stands for et cetera
I use ca. for circa FWIW.

In English:

ca. = "about" or "approximately"
e.g. = "ergo" = "for example"
i.e. = "that is" (exact, not approximate)
etc. = "and so forth and so on"

Pretty much the extent of Latin I remember aside from a few esoteric terms from my pre-med days in college (and nothing from my HS Latin courses)
 
Last edited:

hwest

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NP


You can look at an online calculator to assess SPL vs. input power for a given loudspeaker sensitivity, listening distance, and placement with respect to walls (boundaries). But you don't even really need that for this. You can ignore loudness curves for an initial approximation, and for a typical speaker with reasonably flat response just assume the same power input at any frequency leads to the same output SPL. That is, if the speaker has flat frequency response, and is rated for 90 dB/W/m SPL, than for 1 W input at any frequency the sound level will be 90 dB when you are 1 m from the speaker. The level will fall off with distance at a rate determined by the speaker's directivity (dispersion pattern) and your room's size and treatments etc. You can ignore that too, though usually the fall-off is greater at higher frequencies than lower frequencies, but you are asking for a relative comparison between a single amp and multiple amps split across frequency bands.

Just think about 1 W at any frequency producing 90 dB at 1 m from your speaker. This is very simplistic but good enough for a quick hand-waving analysis. Now if you use two amps and they are identical, then the signal producing 1 W at 100 Hz or 10 kHz should be the same. If the amps are different, you need to determine their gain, and decide if you need to adjust their levels. This is where it gets complicated and requires some math.

The parameter most likely to be specified are input sensitivity and power output, which determine the gain of the amp (unless you get one of those that actually lists gain as well). Looking at an example:

Amp A = 100 W into 8 ohms with 1 V input
Amp B = 25 W into 8 ohms with 1 V input

Gain in V/V is Vout/Vin. Vin is specified as 1 V (rms) and since power output Pout = V^2 / R then Vout = sqrt(Pout * R) where R = 8 ohms

Thus Amp A gain = 28.28 V/V (29 dB) and Amp B gain = 14.97 V/V (23 dB). Since 1 V is a common sensitivity spec, reflecting a typical 1 Vrms output of many consumer products, the amps have different gains to achieve full output power from 1 V input. Note 6 dB is a pretty large difference, so if you put the same input level into both amps, the smaller amp will be 6 dB quieter -- until it clips. That is likely the "high" amp and likely does not need as much power, but you do not want the lower mids and bass to be that much louder than the upper mids and highs, either.

To be at the same level you'll need to add 6 dB attenuation before the 100 W ("bass") amp. Either add a series attenuator of 6 dB, turn the level control down 6 dB, or adjust the trims or channel levels in your preamp or processor to align the bass and treble gains (-6/0, -3/3, etc. in dB). Then 1 V into each amp channel will produce 25 W, though at the amps' inputs there will be 1 V into the 25 W amp and only 0.5 V into the 100 W amp's input connectors. When actually using the system, loudness curves say the bass will be much higher (10~30 dB) in level than the treble, so you may not lose power by aligning the gains. That is, when the output is 2 V, the bass amp will get 1 V and drive to 100 W, and likely the tweeter amp is still getting only a fraction of a volt because higher signals sound louder to us and thus require less signal (power).

Since "passive" bi-amping using an AVR sends the same full-range signal to both amplifiers, i.e. no crossover inside the AVR in this case, you must use identical amps, or attenuate he amp with higher gain. Attenuation fixes the level problem, but since both amps have the same signal, you don't gain anything by using a low- and high-powered amp for highs and lows because the input signal is the same from the AVR, there is no frequency splitting to let lows be louder than highs without clipping the AVR's output. Trinnov and other high-end processors allow you to set crossovers inside the box so you could use different amps. But it's a lot of effort for generally minimal if any gains.

As for audibility, I have usually said 1 dB change is not really noticeable when changing the volume, but in this case a fraction of a dB can be audible since it is applied to a very broad bandwidth (the range each amp is covering). For this, I would use the listening test criteria of 0.1 dB or less between amp channels to avoid perceptible changes in frequency response. And note changes can be good or bad; many people prefer non-flat response, and adjusting the response to account for room response and preference is perfectly valid though may not be desirable from the standpoint of altering what the artist intended for you to hear.

Again, all my handwaving, YMMV - Don
I will say I respect your opinions and the details you provided here, it's so tough to get to the final outcome so many variables and I am here to learn so thanks.
 

hwest

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I have the following amps:

- Yamaha RX-A4A (receiver)
- Yamaha A-S1100 (integrated)

Currently, the fronts (KEF R11’s) are powered solely by the integrated. It’s connected to the pre-out from the receiver. The receiver only powers the surrounds and center (KEF R3’s and R2C).

Can I bi-amp the fronts by separating low/high frequency with respectively the integrated for lows and receiver for highs?

If so, is it useful, and if yes how do I do this?
Do I simply remove the link knobs on the speakers and attach the front speaker connections of the receiver to the high frequency inputs of the speakers?

I’m willing to try it anyway, but I’m afraid to do something wrong. Do I also need to change the speaker amp configuration in the receiver? Because I’m not willing to bi-amp from the receiver only (and I don’t know if the bi-amp option is for that purpose or really when using a separate amp).

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Don't let anyone fool you. If you have extra power with your amplification as I do and have the ability to control your highs and lows separately and the discrete elements separately that can be manipulated through your setup it does make a big difference. For anyone questioning this without attempting it where the factors above are true you would see and hear a significant improvement. If you're running cheaper speakers then you may not get a big benefit, also be sure to check how your crossovers are configured some control highs and lows or mids/highs and lows with a varying amount of crossovers in the system. If you're not able to power those crossovers independently then it's not going to help you.
 

Chrispy

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I use ca. for circa FWIW.

In English:

ca. = "about" or "approximately"
e.g. = "ergo" = "for example"
i.e. = "that is" (exact, not approximate)
etc. = "and so forth and so on"

Pretty much the extent of Latin I remember aside from a few esoteric terms from my pre-med days in college (and nothing from my HS Latin courses)
My biggest takeaway after four years is the phrase "suum quique"
 

Chrispy

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You make it sound like bi wiring is illegal or imoral.
Just takes 2 pairs of cables. I am doing it, you know. Come to the dark side.
More on the lines of why do dumb stuff?
 

dualazmak

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I use ca. for circa FWIW.

In English:

ca. = "about" or "approximately"
e.g. = "ergo" = "for example"
i.e. = "that is" (exact, not approximate)
etc. = "and so forth and so on"

Pretty much the extent of Latin I remember aside from a few esoteric terms from my pre-med days in college (and nothing from my HS Latin courses)

I usually use these in italic; ca., e.g., i.e., etc.
 

antcollinet

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No more dumb than Triangle, who put 2 sets of sockets on the speaker.
No, they are doing it for the very valid reason that they can persuade people who don't know any better, to pay more for it.

Or, more charitably, because they know that people who don't know any better won't buy their product if they don't.
 

Overseas

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No, they are doing it for the very valid reason that they can persuade people who don't know any better, to pay more for it.

Or, more charitably, because they know that people who don't know any better won't buy their product if they don't.
Whatever you say, I am doing it Triangle way and that is not a snake oil company, not by far.

I did not pretend it takes veils off my sound so it is rude and dumb for you to say I do dumb stuff. Not anymore dumb than people around here screaming for volume knobs while they have remotes - and there are lots of topics on petty things like that, though I do not call it dumb.
 

Overseas

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So how do you know people 'pay more' for Triangles with bi wire sockets!? More comparing to what? Did you check the cost calculation for my speakers? Why do you need to be rude and embarass yourself this Sunday, just because you hate bi wiring. I suggest take it to therapy, do not talk about me paying 'more' when you cannot define what the 'standard' price should be.

This is not your forum, cowboy.
 

JeremyFife

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Don't let anyone fool you. If you have extra power with your amplification as I do and have the ability to control your highs and lows separately and the discrete elements separately that can be manipulated through your setup it does make a big difference. For anyone questioning this without attempting it where the factors above are true you would see and hear a significant improvement. If you're running cheaper speakers then you may not get a big benefit, also be sure to check how your crossovers are configured some control highs and lows or mids/highs and lows with a varying amount of crossovers in the system. If you're not able to power those crossovers independently then it's not going to help you.
Nothing to do with "cheaper speakers" and everything to do with whether you can replace your passive crossovers ... in this case, you can't so there is absolutely no point.
Even then, benefits are debatable.
 

antcollinet

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DonH56

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I usually use these in italic; ca., e.g., i.e., etc.
Me too. I'll update my post, but this place has gotten very picky lately. As an engineer, English is a second language, and Latin ain't even on the list...

Edit: Actually, the style guide I've been using (ANSI-based corporate and IEEE), puts ca. in italics but not the others. My old college grammar handbook puts them all in italics. I figure there are bigger things to debate.
 

MaxwellsEq

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Sorry everyone for starting an unnecessary diversion.
 
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