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Why Doubt Is Essential to Science - Sci. Am.

amirm

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Got some growths on my nose went to the doctor and he prescribed antibiotics asked him what the growths were he turned away. Another one arrived saw a different doctor and he said on no account take antibiotics until they burst, if they didn’t there might be problematic. Adding taking antibiotics before they burst may stop it happening.
Covid arrived and medical services here disappeared, went to see the doctor a few months ago and he got concerned and referred me to a specialist. Had an operation to remove cancerous growths and a lot of my nose was cut away. Saw an Oncologist today and was told if any more was taken away it would leave me needing reconstruction surgery. Start radio therapy next week to burn away what’s left of the growths.
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Very sorry about that development but definitely the right story to tell.

Some of you may know that Jobs had pancreatic cancer and initially resorted to other "means" to treat it before trusting the doctors to deal with it which sadly was too late. When his chief designer, Jony Ive likewise came down with cancer, Steve's advice to him was clear: "don't mess around with it." Meaning go to proper doctors and get it treated. And treated he did.
 

amirm

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And here's the point you're missing. No one is arguing that "anything" is a reasonable argument.
What? That is the moto of high-end audio subjectivists. The "everything matters in audio." There is no theory too remote to not be believable. They have left nothing out. I know an audiophile who put in expensive dedicated balanced power. Then he changed his outlets and claimed sound improved yet again. Then he changed the screws that hold the outlets and there was an improvement yet again! A new universe of laws governing audio fidelity has been created and OP's article encourage the doubters who just look for "some scientific" to justify their incredible positions here.
 

Killingbeans

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Folks are not going to another person who really understands the audio field for that opinion.

The problem is that they think they do just that. They seek out authority figures who spew whatever BS that seems to fit the doubting, and then point to them as the true experts.
 

amirm

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The problem is that they think they do just that. They seek out authority figures who spew whatever BS that seems to fit the doubting, and then point to them as the true experts.
Ah, correct. The other day someone said, "Danny at GR Research even called you out!!!" meaning he is an expert in audio and him "calling me out" is a huge deal. They elevate people without knowledge to expert levels and then use them as proof points that they are right.
 

Narnian

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You got a second opinion from another professional. You did not substitute your own lay intuition of what is wrong with you. This is what is happening in audio day in, and day out. Entire body of audio science and engineering is thrown out and one's own opinion inserted as not only the truth, but universal law of audio. Everything now requires break in for example. Why? Because your old cars needed it so it must mean that your cables do too. Folks are not going to another person who really understands the audio field for that opinion.

So, no, your situation has nothing to do with the point I raised in my post. I was asking the poster if he was just as incredulous and "open minded" about the professional opinion of his doctor relative to his. That is precisely what he has done in the past, saying Dr. Toole's knowledge of this field is wrong and his opinion is more correct. And he doesn't just keep the opinion to himself. He posts about it and searches for any lifeline to validate his opinion over not only professionals but luminaries in our field.

Mind you, nothing wrong with challenging the opinion of experts. You just have to show you know more than they do. For example, I have challenged Dr. Toole on subject of non-linear compression audibility and how trained and untrailed listeners are not born equally there. That is my domain of expertise much more than it has been that of Dr. Toole. But OP? And sound reproduction in a room? You must be kidding....

So please don't come to his defense. There is no defense there that makes sense. We all rely incredibly on opinion of professional in our life and don't demand personal knowledge of the same as a substitute. But somehow audio is special and what decades of audio research and engineering has taught us is fit to be discarded. And replaced with "what my ears tell me" and "I have been an audiophile for X number of years so I know." No, they don't know.
I think you misunderstood me. I was saying doubt is not bad, but it does need to be substantiated with better knowledge. I believe if you reread it I was backing up expertise over opinion.

If I had simply accepted the first doctors diagnosis I would still be in pain. I knew enough as a laymen (working in the health industry for the past 20 years, biology major, etc.) to know there were other possible causes but the doctor insisted he was correct. So I inquired of other medical professionals who knew more than me with my concerns and discovered I was correct in my questioning, but I did not substitute my option for professional expertise - I sought it out. I did research and was more than willing to be proven wrong.

I have very limited knowledge of audio science which is why I come here to learn. Your methodology is sound (pun not intended but what the heck) your premises and assumptions are presented so your conclusions are easily understood as to how you arrived at your conclusions.

“what my ears tell me” is insufficient, I agree, as a challenge. They need to build their own controlled test case and execute it, or find other expertise to back it up.
 
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BDWoody

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... Saw an Oncologist today and was told if any more was taken away it would leave me needing reconstruction surgery. Start radio therapy next week to burn away what’s left of the growths.

Consider my fingers crossed for you.
 

earlevel

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And here's the point you're missing. No one is arguing that "anything" is a reasonable argument.
What? That is the moto of high-end audio subjectivists. The "everything matters in audio." There is no theory too remote to not be believable. They have left nothing out. I know an audiophile who put in expensive dedicated balanced power. Then he changed his outlets and claimed sound improved yet again. Then he changed the screws that hold the outlets and there was an improvement yet again! A new universe of laws governing audio fidelity has been created and OP's article encourage the doubters who just look for "some scientific" to justify their incredible positions here.
I said that I am not arguing that any argument is a reasonable one. Here, you're countering with examples of unreasonable arguments, so you must have thought I was saying that any argument needs to be entertained? No, I'm not advocating unreasonable arguments—why would I?

Here again, in context, since the comment wasn't to anything you said, but what another poster said.

"The fact that anything is possible does not mean that anything is plausible or that everything is equally likely."

And here's the point you're missing. No one is arguing that "anything" is a reasonable argument.

It's counter productive to respond to assumptions about what I really mean when I say something. But as long as I'm adding another post, I'll try to make my opinions about expressing doubt on scientific findings very clear. Again, I'm referring primarily to specific scientific research findings, which is the vast majority of day to day research and discovery.

Scrutiny and doubt from other scientists:
This is historical, it's the way science works and should continue. If anyone think that certain aspects of science need to be walled off and not revisited, they don't understand how we make advances. I hope everyone would agree with this. There are certain inherent hurdles that keep crackpots to a minimum, such as research funding, and peer review and publication. The latter can sometimes be more of a barrier than it should, and not good enough barrier in some cases, but we live with it.

Scrutiny and doubt from non-scientists: Sure, this is potentially where there could more likely be dragons. But it goes way too far to say we should shut down discussion by non-researchers. For one, it's a fundamental freedom of speech issue (where do we stop?). But also it keeps science honest. (Not implying scientists are dishonest. But, for example, if an area of research is primarily funded by government contracts, and the government isn't keen on certain findings, you will see little of those finding published, and an overwhelming amount of the findings they like. Fact of life.)

To be blunt and give a specific example about non-scientists, a guy like Alex Berersen is not a scientist, but he can read research findings. He was banned from twitter, largely for publishing pharma companys' own publicly available research, and saying, "hey—lookie here!". He has since won reinstatement via the courts, but this is primarily the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Yes, we risk that some bozo with a blog says the world is made of cheese whiz. The difference is that I can evaluate whether something Berensen says on his blog makes sense, because I will pull up the published pharma research paper he cites, and see if what he says I true. I read a lot of research papers on medicine, physics, etc., I'm comfortable navigating them—I'll track down the related research papers when I read an article that omits citing them. And I probably won't read the blog with the cheeze whiz guy. I don't spend a lot of time wringing my hands over people who think the earth is flat, we will always have idiots.

So when you tell me that some guy changed the screws and he thinks he got better output, I'm not terribly challenged by that, just annoyed like you.
 
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