• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Which drivers for highly custom, small enclosure?

jaakkopetteri

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2022
Messages
98
Likes
48
And tha Seas is very orverpriced in the actual market, that Dayton cost a lot less and is a better subwoofer in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, Seas makes great drivers and the L26Roy is, but similar quality drivers from SB, Dayton and a few others cost a lot less...
Are they similar quality, though? The shallow SB for example does way worse in Klippel than the L26ROY, and I've seen Daytons also having some funky stuff in the BL curve
 

Waxx

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2021
Messages
1,658
Likes
6,487
Location
Wodecq, Hainaut, Belgium
I never saw measurements of those you mention actually, but i do know that the SB23NRX45-8 or a Dayton UM series subwoofers are highly regarded and the SB23 measure well on tests online like here: https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/sbacoustics/sb-acoustics-sb23nrxs45-8.

But if you're keen on the Seas, it's a good driver, just to much money for what it is. That is a bit a problem with Seas in general, good drivers but too expensive compared to similar drivers from other brands. For that kind of money i rather look at Scanspeak or Purifi for drivers, they are better and similar priced. I'm a fan of many of their drivers, it's just the price.

And focussing on on spec to find a good driver is never a good id (in general). So i hope you did check the rest also...
 
OP
S

suttondesign

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 4, 2019
Messages
694
Likes
1,182
Location
Bellingham, WA
It turns out, the Scan 28w is available, just sells out quickly. I’m about to order 4.
ps
 

jaakkopetteri

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2022
Messages
98
Likes
48
I never saw measurements of those you mention actually, but i do know that the SB23NRX45-8 or a Dayton UM series subwoofers are highly regarded and the SB23 measure well on tests online like here: https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/sbacoustics/sb-acoustics-sb23nrxs45-8.
Another example from SB: https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-the-sb42fhcl75-6-15-subwoofer-from-sb-acoustics
 

Waxx

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2021
Messages
1,658
Likes
6,487
Location
Wodecq, Hainaut, Belgium
Another example from SB: https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-the-sb42fhcl75-6-15-subwoofer-from-sb-acoustics
Ok, on BL symetry it does not score as well as the Seas, but on distortion it's a lot better in the mesurments, and that is way more important than a perfect BL curve. That balanced BL curve is nice to have, has only indirect an influence on the sound, and i don't see it in the response or distortion graphs as bad with the SB42...

And that SW26 is a speciality woofer, with other priorities than the best sound, it should be shallow enough to fit under a fauteuil or so and still sound good. It's a very different woofer than both the SB42 or the L26 and you can't compare it for the same kind of use (as it's not ment for it). If you compare the SB42 and the L26, the SB42 wins with ease for me for a subwoofer if i compare all measurements, not only BL symetry.

But at the end, if you want the L26, use it. It's not bad at all (we are nitpicking here), but i keep my remarks from above. I would not use it for this.
 

MAB

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 15, 2021
Messages
1,733
Likes
3,686
Location
Portland, OR, USA
Ok, on BL symetry it does not score as well as the Seas, but on distortion it's a lot better in the mesurments, and that is way more important than a perfect BL curve. That balanced BL curve is nice to have, has only indirect an influence on the sound, and i don't see it in the response or distortion graphs as bad with the SB42...

And that SW26 is a speciality woofer, with other priorities than the best sound, it should be shallow enough to fit under a fauteuil or so and still sound good. It's a very different woofer than both the SB42 or the L26 and you can't compare it for the same kind of use (as it's not ment for it). If you compare the SB42 and the L26, the SB42 wins with ease for me for a subwoofer if i compare all measurements, not only BL symetry.

But at the end, if you want the L26, use it. It's not bad at all (we are nitpicking here), but i keep my remarks from above. I would not use it for this.
Yeah, the shallow SB Acoustics sub seems to be an amazing device. The asymmetry seems to be the tradeoff in the shallow design. I wonder if the asymmetry would lead to some additional odd vs. even HD components. I bet it would be hard to measure, would probably need to do something fancy like two iso-baric back to back and then front to back... I dunno... But it's really low distortion sub.

Agreed with your points on the L26 prices. I am am a longtime user of Seas, but most of Seas' drivers have gone up by 2x in the US, seems more than other manufacturers.
Also, Seas have at least two revisions of each L26 model (including the passive radiator, and many of their Excel line), and haven't really kept their datasheets current. Understand some of this seems part of moving their manufacturing back home...
 
OP
S

suttondesign

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 4, 2019
Messages
694
Likes
1,182
Location
Bellingham, WA
Well, instead of pinching pennies, I've ordered two Scan 28W to build the first sub. Madisound is having them airmailed to me. Way more money than any of the others, I know. But space vs. performance tradeoffs are the driving considerations, and that's a nice driver. So I'll ultimately have 4 of those in two boxes spaced about 8' apart, with differing room excitations. That ought to slay the dragon.

You can't put a price on happiness, right?
 

Salt

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2023
Messages
362
Likes
144
Location
lower saxony
The shallow SB is fine for special cases (in wall) but has lots of distortions.
Waiting for refinement schould be worth.
 

MAB

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 15, 2021
Messages
1,733
Likes
3,686
Location
Portland, OR, USA
Well, instead of pinching pennies, I've ordered two Scan 28W to build the first sub. Madisound is having them airmailed to me. Way more money than any of the others, I know. But space vs. performance tradeoffs are the driving considerations, and that's a nice driver. So I'll ultimately have 4 of those in two boxes spaced about 8' apart, with differing room excitations. That ought to slay the dragon.

You can't put a price on happiness, right?
Those are going to be awesome!
The cost of the build is materials, effort, and time. The drivers are just a portion of the materials.

Keeps us posted!
 

MAB

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 15, 2021
Messages
1,733
Likes
3,686
Location
Portland, OR, USA
The shallow SB is fine for special cases (in wall) but has lots of distortions.
Waiting for refinement schould be worth.
How so?
The shallow SB Acoustic driver actually tests very low distortion.
Yes, in a wall it will have lots of resonances unless you have a very special wall, but in a box it's a very low distortion driver as a subwoofer:

In this very thread we are all discussing how low the distortion is! Is there some data you have that indicates otherwise? Not trying to be contrarian but the actual measurements show extremely low distortion. It is a bit amazing in fact.:)
 
OP
S

suttondesign

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 4, 2019
Messages
694
Likes
1,182
Location
Bellingham, WA
Those are going to be awesome!
The cost of the build is materials, effort, and time. The drivers are just a portion of the materials.

Keeps us posted!
It is so relaxing and enjoyable to build projects like this. Cheaper than, for example, a boat, which people in our neck of the woods spend huge sums of money on -- and keep spending. Woodworking, while it ends up being expensive with tools and supplies, is an order of magnitude lower than a lot of other things. Besides which, I get so bored on boats.
 

jaakkopetteri

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2022
Messages
98
Likes
48
Ok, on BL symetry it does not score as well as the Seas, but on distortion it's a lot better in the mesurments, and that is way more important than a perfect BL curve. That balanced BL curve is nice to have, has only indirect an influence on the sound, and i don't see it in the response or distortion graphs as bad with the SB42...

And that SW26 is a speciality woofer, with other priorities than the best sound, it should be shallow enough to fit under a fauteuil or so and still sound good. It's a very different woofer than both the SB42 or the L26 and you can't compare it for the same kind of use (as it's not ment for it). If you compare the SB42 and the L26, the SB42 wins with ease for me for a subwoofer if i compare all measurements, not only BL symetry.

But at the end, if you want the L26, use it. It's not bad at all (we are nitpicking here), but i keep my remarks from above. I would not use it for this.
How is it a lot better in distortion? The SEAS has lower HD than either of the SB subs in the Test Bench test. And I disagree, a balanced BL curve is not "nice to have" - in subwoofers it's arguably a more revealing measure than harmonic distortion.

I included the SW26 as an example of SB's engineering. None of their drivers have particularly good nonlinearities. I agree that the SEAS is not the best in value, but do note that the price seems to vary quite a lot. You can get it for less than the SB42...
 

Salt

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2023
Messages
362
Likes
144
Location
lower saxony
Look at impedance at 1.5 kHz, there is a distorsion, but so what for a woofer?
Look at Distorsion below 100 Hz. So what for a woofer?
And these are data from producer.
Where is Rms?
Given reliable testing by Bernd Timmermanns these woofers are riable for good sound bass forwhatsoever, but not (yet) for high fidelity (awaiting this by myself for a site by site woofered broadband).
 

MAB

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 15, 2021
Messages
1,733
Likes
3,686
Location
Portland, OR, USA
It is so relaxing and enjoyable to build projects like this. Cheaper than, for example, a boat, which people in our neck of the woods spend huge sums of money on -- and keep spending. Woodworking, while it ends up being expensive with tools and supplies, is an order of magnitude lower than a lot of other things. Besides which, I get so bored on boats.
I agree completely.
I used to live in Bellingham, as well as Friday Harbor, and Port Townsend. And worked on boats! I love them, but...

I like your approach, it's going to sound great.
 

MAB

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 15, 2021
Messages
1,733
Likes
3,686
Location
Portland, OR, USA
Look at impedance at 1.5 kHz, there is a distorsion, but so what for a woofer?
Look at Distorsion below 100 Hz. So what for a woofer?
And these are data from producer.
Where is Rms?
Given reliable testing by Bernd Timmermanns these woofers are riable for good sound bass forwhatsoever, but not (yet) for high fidelity (awaiting this by myself for a site by site woofered broadband).
Hi, perhaps I'm not understanding your past!
The distortion data in the reviews are measurements from independent testing. Not from the manufacturer.
Yes, it has a breakup mode at 1.5kHz, but this is a sub, not a midbass. So if you want to use broadband, these are not good choices. There are other drivers with different tradeoffs. These look great for the intended purpose, especially at the price point.
 

jhaider

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
2,678
Likes
4,213
Moot as to the original purpose now - and surely nobody has ever been fired for specifying a ScanSpeak Rev to be used for its intended purpose! - but for sake of discussion...

Are they similar quality, though? The shallow SB for example does way worse in Klippel than the L26ROY,

While that’s not really wrong based on available data*, when evaluating data one must always consider test conditions (here, an open baffle test fixture) and use case. The SB shallow 10 is a driver designed for use in very small enclosures. Basically we’re talking true acoustic suspension, a very different environment than OB. So compliance may well be swamped by the air spring, in which case the ability of the motor to push through is the dominant factor. And these have motor. To my uneducated view it looks like their motor force is biased to fight against the airspring on the out-stroke. Wavecor has a driver made for similar uses with similar BL shape (but half the throw - I think Audio Physic uses the Wavecor).

@René - Acculution.com a simulation of ideal BL and compliance properties for big drivers in tiny closed boxes might be an interesting article.

Perhaps there is an argument to me made that bigger boxes are better. They are certainly more efficient. However, as long as you have the power and power handling, personally I have not found a disadvantage to a small box with a big cone driven by a stout motor. I am reasonably sure that, equalized to equivalent FR and with sufficient power in both cases, I could not distinguish my SB26 based subs from the Triad Bronze subs (OG Danish-made XLS10 in stout closed boxes) we use in a different system. And the SB-based subs are 1/3 the depth.

*Erin and Vance Dickason have each written up the 4 Ohm SB shallow subs up, about a dozen years apart, with consistent results - FWIW I bought Vance’s review samples but UPS delivered them to the wrong address in the wrong ZIP code. They were unfortunately never recovered even though I contacted UPS within ~15 minutes of the misdelivery…
 

MAB

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 15, 2021
Messages
1,733
Likes
3,686
Location
Portland, OR, USA
How is it a lot better in distortion? The SEAS has lower HD than either of the SB subs in the Test Bench test. And I disagree, a balanced BL curve is not "nice to have" - in subwoofers it's arguably a more revealing measure than harmonic distortion.

I included the SW26 as an example of SB's engineering. None of their drivers have particularly good nonlinearities. I agree that the SEAS is not the best in value, but do note that the price seems to vary quite a lot. You can get it for less than the SB42...

I think the asymmetric BL non-linearity would specifically show up as HD.
1691462094777.png


Let's compare the actual distortion, both look pretty decent:
1691449009100.png

Looking at the third order distortion of the SB SW26, it does rise. Note the distortion scales are different, and the SW26 trace only goes to 30 Hz. And the 2kHz is far away from where this speaker should operate. Perhaps this is that non-linearity coming into play. If so, this would get worse with SPL. But the SW26 looks like a great woofer, and if you want to minimize these non-linearities, buy two for the price of one Seas L26!:cool:
 

j_j

Major Contributor
Audio Luminary
Technical Expert
Joined
Oct 10, 2017
Messages
2,145
Likes
4,399
Location
My kitchen or my listening room.
Yeah, for small box you're going to want sealed, with electronic compensation for the sub amp.

Does this have to be "downfacing" or could you use a cabinet that fires horizontally but radiates through a slot, maybe? I'm quite done with the idea of "downward firing".
 

j_j

Major Contributor
Audio Luminary
Technical Expert
Joined
Oct 10, 2017
Messages
2,145
Likes
4,399
Location
My kitchen or my listening room.
How about in a .9 cu ft box using 12dB of lf boost between 20 and 80 Hz? That should be very close to flat, and the woofer is stupidly powerful.

By LF boost I mean a lowpass network down 3dB at 20Hz and 12 down at 80Hz.
  • Main product image for CSS SDX12 XBL2 12 Subwoofer 290-3006

  • Main product image for CSS SDX12 XBL2 12 Subwoofer 290-3006

  • Main product image for CSS SDX12 XBL2 12 Subwoofer 290-3006

  • Main product image for CSS SDX12 XBL2 12 Subwoofer 290-3006
Main product image for CSS SDX12 XBL2 12
Main product image for CSS SDX12 XBL2 12
Main product image for CSS SDX12 XBL2 12

CSS SDX12 XBL2 12" Subwoofer​

 
Top Bottom