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The Science Delusion: has science become dogmatic?

Blumlein 88

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Actually I have to pick on j_j here a bit. He messed up the saying.

I've usually seen it one of two ways.

The plural of anecdote is not data.
The plural of anecdote is not science.

In other words one anecdote is not scientific. Having a 100 more anecdotes isn't scientific either. j_j should have left the s off in his post. ;)
 

Blumlein 88

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It seems to me that the most dogmatic posters on AScienceR are those who overrate their knowledge and understanding of what they talk about and can't be reasoned with.
You talking to me....?

Are you implying there is something I don't know and understand?

I'll have you know I know.

I'll have you understand I understand.

GOT IT!

:D:p
 

Wombat

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You talking to me....?

Are you implying there is something I don't know and understand?

I'll have you know I know.

I'll have you understand I understand.

GOT IT!

:D:p


No, nyet, non, nein, ochi, ne, nu, net. Of course this is not comprehensive. ;)

Don't%20tell%20anyone.gif
:p
 
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Blumlein 88

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USB and Thunderbolt are converging.
Wish they'd hurry up and converge. UTB=Universal Thunderbolt Bus. As long as they don't decide to have the cable spec'd to provide 500 watts of power between devices or something stupid like that.
 

mansr

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Does Astronomy/Cosmology rate an exception?

They have a wealth of observations and models and conclusions, but test?
As an example, sometimes a model predicts that a certain type of star should exist. If one is subsequently found, that strengthens the model. If a star is found that doesn't fit the model, changes will have to be made. There are many stars in various stages of development, so although we can't stage an experiment, we can look for a star that already exists in the desired conditions.
 

mansr

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Wish they'd hurry up and converge. UTB=Universal Thunderbolt Bus. As long as they don't decide to have the cable spec'd to provide 500 watts of power between devices or something stupid like that.
USB4 products can optionally be Thunderbolt 3 compatible, so it's not far off.
 

Tks

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USB and Thunderbolt are converging.

Precisely why I don't understand it.

USB4 products can optionally be Thunderbolt 3 compatible, so it's not far off.

This makes things worse seeing as how TB4 was announced.

Also I feel standards with "optional" modifiers to their implementation need to be legislatively eradicated. They're contradictions in terms if looking at it, at face value.

HDMI seem to be entering this business of "optional" standards as well (recently allowing the latest LG OLED's get away with 40Gbps bandwidth on HDMI 2.1 certified connections).

Don't get me started with HDR concerning HDR10, or DolbyVision for example... Or the media's handling of these issues. It's as bad as audio sector coverage.
 

mansr

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Precisely why I don't understand it.
We don't need two standards doing the same thing in slightly different ways, so it's really a good thing.

Also I feel standards with "optional" modifiers to their implementation need to be legislatively eradicated. They're contradictions in terms if looking at it, at face value.
I mostly agree, but in this case, I think it's warranted. Allowing TB3 and USB using the same connector is really no different from allowing separate connectors without mandating that all devices have both. It's not even that much of a stretch to compare it to allowing use of the same Ethernet port with different protocols.
 

Wes

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The ability to falsify a hypothesis is the touchstone of modern science.

That said, testability can vary widely in different disciplines. There are types of sciences that I call "complex" - where many possible drivers or causes can create an effect. Examples include climatology, behavioral sciences and ecology. Nonetheless, some very clever experimental designs have been used to make progress.

I do have to say that a LOT of what a scientist does is not science in the sense of hypothesis testing.

As for string theories, I heard of one wag (a physics prof.) who said that string theorists should be housed in the Philosophy Dept.
 

j_j

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Precisely why I don't understand it.



This makes things worse seeing as how TB4 was announced.

Also I feel standards with "optional" modifiers to their implementation need to be legislatively eradicated. They're contradictions in terms if looking at it, at face value.

HDMI seem to be entering this business of "optional" standards as well (recently allowing the latest LG OLED's get away with 40Gbps bandwidth on HDMI 2.1 certified connections).

Don't get me started with HDR concerning HDR10, or DolbyVision for example... Or the media's handling of these issues. It's as bad as audio sector coverage.


That's not science, that's cost-controlled engineering.

HDMI does not even allow repeatable latency between audio and video last I saw. When this was pointed out, the reaction was basically "shut up".
 

Ron Party

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Actually I have to pick on j_j here a bit. He messed up the saying.

I've usually seen it one of two ways.

The plural of anecdote is not data.
The plural of anecdote is not science.

In other words one anecdote is not scientific. Having a 100 more anecdotes isn't scientific either. j_j should have left the s off in his post. ;)

Well, in either case, I think we have accidentally stumbled upon a suitable subtitle for this form. Maybe we could petition Amir to just add in the language right below the logo and Audio Science Review title in the upper left corner... even maybe with a smaller font: "The plural of anecdote is neither data nor science." Heck, it might even keep folks from joining whose sole purpose is to troll (vs. learning or otherwise meaningfully contribute).
 

Tks

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We don't need two standards doing the same thing in slightly different ways, so it's really a good thing.

I think you misunderstand me. That is precisely why I don't understand what's going on. They are still maintaining separate standards otherwise TB4 would not need to be ratified now that USB4 has, but they are instead continuing on that path.. That's the part that doesn't make sense if we're to hold to any logical consistency.

The 'good thing' you speak about, is precisely what is not seemingly going to happen.


I mostly agree, but in this case, I think it's warranted. Allowing TB3 and USB using the same connector is really no different from allowing separate connectors without mandating that all devices have both. It's not even that much of a stretch to compare it to allowing use of the same Ethernet port with different protocols.

Physical connectors aren't an issue in my commentary. The issue with standards is the fact they are having "optional" portions, while providing no differentiating factor with respect to advertising in one example. So for instance LG can advertise HDMI 2.1, and Sony can advertise HDMI 2.1 connections in their devices. But have no obligation to advertise any differently even if Sony supports all aspects of the specification, while LG doesn't.

THAT is the problem. No so much problem is found whether I²S should use the same physical connector as any other HDMI cable. There is no confusion in the slightest when you compare technical specs of I²S, and HDMI side by side. Comparing the technical differences between HDMI 2.1 from LG, and HDMI 2.1 television from Samsung will yield differences (in reality) even though they're both advertised as being certified under the same specification. Which is an outright lie/disingenuous if we accept the law of identity within such context.

Even if every single connector on the plannet looking like and interfaced like a USB-C connector. There is no problem if the specification/standard is explicit by definition between devices. Once you say there are "optional portions".. I just fail to grasp how this isn't a proprietary use of diciton of the words like "standard" or "specification".
 

mansr

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I think you misunderstand me. That is precisely why I don't understand what's going on. They are still maintaining separate standards otherwise TB4 would not need to be ratified now that USB4 has, but they are instead continuing on that path.. That's the part that doesn't make sense if we're to hold to any logical consistency.
Thunderbolt is an Intel-exclusive thing. You can't get the spec without signing various legal agreements with Intel. Every Thunderbolt device needs to be approved by Intel. USB4 provides the same functionality with an open spec, free for anyone to download. We need more open specs.

Even if every single connector on the plannet looking like and interfaced like a USB-C connector. There is no problem if the specification/standard is explicit by definition between devices. Once you say there are "optional portions".. I just fail to grasp how this isn't a proprietary use of diciton of the words like "standard" or "specification".
Am I getting this right? You are OK with a device having a single USB-C port providing either USB3 OR Thunderbolt connectivity. You are OK with a device having two identical connectors, one for USB and one for Thunderbolt. You are not OK with a device having a single connector providing both protocols. I don't understand.
 

Tks

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Thunderbolt is an Intel-exclusive thing. You can't get the spec without signing various legal agreements with Intel. Every Thunderbolt device needs to be approved by Intel. USB4 provides the same functionality with an open spec, free for anyone to download. We need more open specs.

It used to be an Intel-only thing. Not anymore.

In so far as approved, I hope you mean simply certified by some certification house like any other transmission standard (like displayPort or HDMI and such countless others). Royalties have ended if I recall back in mid 2019, and USB-IF (Universal Serial Bus Implementers Forum) have taken the reigns, and is what USB4 is being built on. This also means manufacturers can also produce TB3 silicon if they wish (where before those rights remained with Intel, AND you had to pay a single royalty fee).


Am I getting this right? You are OK with a device having a single USB-C port providing either USB3 OR Thunderbolt connectivity. You are OK with a device having two identical connectors, one for USB and one for Thunderbolt. You are not OK with a device having a single connector providing both protocols. I don't understand.

If you need your questions answered directly, just read the bolded portion for a quick TL;DR

I'll be as clear as I can. This whole issue started with false specification/standard advertising. Saying something is HDMI 2.1 certified, but then when you look, you see if fails specification. The specification creators have started over the past few years including "optional" portions of standards which is a contradiction in terms, and is a disastrous (in my book fraud) to allow devices to advertise passing a standard, when no apparent differences exist until you test or dig deeper into manuals as to the actual portions of a standard they've implemented.

That is the big issue here for me. You brought up physical connectors and their similarities but differing capability, to which I really have no qualms with generally speaking but ONLY IF you are being sold precisely what is being advertised to you. I don't want Thunderbolt 3 advertising on a product that would only function as a general USB Type C transmission cable certified only for something like USB 3.1 Gen 2 transmission rate, or features.

The only issue I have with that ordeal, is the naming schemes are simply confusing people (USB-IF are actual morons in this respect, they've made a complete mess since USB 3.0 and later). But as long as you get what is advertised. That's fine.

Again, my issue was with fraudulent atmosphere surrounding specifications and standards lately. And the advertising allowances. The biggest problem being again - as I've said - when a company advertises for example HDMI 2.1, there is no way for me to know how many portions of the standard they're actually implementing. This is running rampant especially within HDR standards, and things like Variable Refresh Rates of panels.

So to your question:

You are OK with a device having a single USB-C port providing either USB3 OR Thunderbolt connectivity.

Not unless one standard includes ALL portions of the other specification in terms of performance. Like if Thunderbolt 3 provides all the prior aspects of USB-C's various iterations (aside obviously from the physical connector shape which it doesn't), then it's fine in my book. Just a bit silly or pointless I suppose.

You are OK with a device having two identical connectors, one for USB and one for Thunderbolt.

Again, that's fine with me, so as long as each function to specification as detailed by each specification. Again, the only qualm with this, is just idiotic confusion for consumers that might get confused if they're not familiar with the confusing naming schemes that are complex for no reason.

You are not OK with a device having a single connector providing both protocols.

No problems there as well. Again, the biggest problem isn't in protocols or connectors themselves. It's the specification forums that are allowing companies to get away with certain advertising claims, that allow a sticker to be put on the device, and both devices don't perform the same due to leniency through optional portions in a specification.

Like if company A makes a TV, and company B makes a TV. And BOTH advertise HDMI 2.1 certified. One could potentially have Dolby Stream Compression capability, while the other doesn't. THIS is at the crux of the issue I have with "standards". Why are they calling them standards when they allow for optional portions? This is defiance of intuitive use of the word "standards". If it's optional, companies could do it themselves on their own, you don't have to tell them "it's optional".. Stop allowing advertising of supported standards, when one company could just do the bare minimum for a supported standard, while another could potentially fulfill the entire specification list. THAT is my main problem here.

The issues you brought up about connectors and confusion born from that ordeal is a seperate issue I don't have much issue with as I said before. As long as no lying is occurring with what you're being sold, then that's fine generally.
 

mansr

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It used to be an Intel-only thing. Not anymore.
Why, then, do I end up here, on a site owned by Intel, when I try to find the Thunderbolt spec?

I'll be as clear as I can. This whole issue started with false specification/standard advertising. Saying something is HDMI 2.1 certified, but then when you look, you see if fails specification. The specification creators have started over the past few years including "optional" portions of standards which is a contradiction in terms, and is a disastrous (in my book fraud) to allow devices to advertise passing a standard, when no apparent differences exist until you test or dig deeper into manuals as to the actual portions of a standard they've implemented.
By that reasoning, all displays should be required to offer 8K resolution and 16-bit per component colour space, and all sources should be able to supply this. That makes no sense.

On some level, I do agree with you that optional parts of standards can be annoying and confusing. Nonetheless, there is a place for this, provided it is done right. If it doesn't makes sense to require all devices to support a particular feature, a good spec will say something along the lines of "you may optionally support Feature X, and if you do, this is how it must be done." The HDMI spec isn't the best example here (the HDR formats are a mess), but at least it guarantees that any compliant source connected to any compliant display will show _something_.

Misleading advertising is a problem, but I think it's wrong to blame that on the specs. The advertisers will always find a way to misrepresent.
 

jhaider

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I'd rather see the world governed by durable principles than by technocratic experts given great power.

"Durable principles" is just coded language for allowing ideology/religion to override data. While there are certainly states that operate on "durable principles" instead of a more modern approach, they are generally economic basket cases and held together only by repression.

Put another way, I didn't realize so many Westerners secretly yearned to live in Iran or North Korea!
 
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